Unclefester Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I've heard tell, back in the misty dawn of human understanding, that the Rover K engine may suffer from having its thermostat in a less than ideal position. From what I can retrieve from my memory bank > this is because the engine was thrown together by a committee of camel-herders who knew little or less of internal combustion engines, and threw sticks in the sand to determine the position of the various components. Thus, various engineering concerns have developed a 'Remote Thermostat' to counteract what's thought to be a predisposition to thermal shock apparently caused by the thermostat being stuck on the end of the waterpump. MY QUESTION (for I do indeed have one in mind ) is this.......have any of the assembled Sevenisti actually fitted one of these things and if so, what were the results? I understand LandRover have come up with one themselves.....plus Geary Powell of Eliseparts fame has a nice kit which moves the 'stat from pump, under the inlet manifold where it's VERY difficult to change on an Elise, to a position at the junction of the heater pipe and main flow to rad, at the rear end of the right side chassis box section/doorsill. Any info on these? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davef Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 UF, not fitted a remote stat myself, though I am following this with some interest. There's been a recent discussion about the LR PRT remote stat here. In addition there is a QED remote stat kit that looks quite good. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 and threw sticks in the sand to determine the position of the various components. Could this description not be equally applicable to those who are offering "solutions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I've just fitted the LandRover one UF Installation/modification was easy and reasonably neat. There's a section on it on my webpage if it's of any use. I'm intending to start the engine later this week so can't really comment any further but Nifty and others have already used them (the LandRover one at least) in earnest so can probably tell you more -those that have changed seem very satisfied from what I've read. Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and threw sticks in the sand to determine the position of the various components. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Could this description not be equally applicable to those who are offering "solutions". Peter, you are being somewhat gnomic. Are you saying that the RT solutions are less than ideal? I've just fitted one of these things from Eliseparts.....what is the state of knowledge on this installation? I see the Landrover system has the thermostat housing near the expansion tank, above the bellhousing, (on an Elise) while the Eliseparts one has it at the tail end of the right chassis beam/door sill. Davef, that's useful....I was at least able to see the Landy based system in detail and clock the differences. It does seem the Eliseparts system has been sold to at least 2000 K series Elise owners, and there are a small percentage of cars on which the Stack temperature reading shows a 'cycling' of temperature from 79°C to 87°C after fitting the remote stat. Most cases show a good regular reading, and the reason for the 'cycling' effect is unknown. My car, (of course) is showing the 'cycling' effect ...... How much does the Landy system cost, anyone know? Darren....that's very clear on your site. What's this about a "belt protection system" BTW? I assume his is for the dual scavange Pace DS system? The reason I ask is that I'm in the process of fabricating one myself.....I've drawn it up, and it's being made by a mate of mine whose company do the jet engine supports for Boeing and Airbus, and did all the clutch plates for the Testarossa. Have you any pix or a progress report? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 23 Jul 2007 11:42:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Peter, you are being somewhat gnomic. Are you saying that the RT solutions are less than ideal? All I am saying is that the small sample of unscientific tests taking place, with no control sample, means that you are left with assurances based on arm-waving and marketing, usually accompanied by dismissal of the original system based on arm-waving and marketing. If you want, I can dig out my text books on control systems based on non-linear closed loop feedback. There will be a lot of Laplace mathematics involved and I will be able to demonstrate a general truth that getting overly concerned with minor fluctuations in the control quantity leads to unstable system behaviour. My own observations of a correctly installed standard system are that there is no fault to cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Car builder solutions do a couple of remote stats for about £30 - not anodised like the QED ones but still v cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 UF: counteract what's thought to be a predisposition to thermal shock apparently caused by the thermostat being stuck on the end of the waterpump. The design was for a 1.1/1.4 town/city car with low emissions and a rapid warm up. My understanding is that an inlet situated thermostat better serves that purpose than the traditional outlet thermostat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old captain slow Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 At the risk of getting a pile of pooh thrown at me..... Isn't it just a case of warm the engine up before giving it beans = joy. Thrash it cold = woe. 😬 C7 CDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 *arrowup* I know the system was designed for a small FWD front engined car, and it's "common wisdom" that the "problem" is really with the high power variants of the K, and especially in the Elise, where the rad is very much more remote than on a Seven. This subject is much discussed on SELOC for that reason, I just wondered if it was thought necessary to use a remote stat by those in the know concerning the high power K engines in Sevens. I should have said >. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 23 Jul 2007 12:48:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL MARRIOTT Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Heres a bit of reading for you. I don't know the answer to "is it needed" but I fitted a PRT a couple of years ago, and SPA digital guages (unfortunately after and not before) and the beast sits at 82 - 84 no matter what driving or weather when on the open road, raises to about 85-86 in traffic and up to 90 when stationary. I did it because the theory of a more stable temp seemed sensible, and I needed something to do one winter 😬 http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/common_problems/hgf_pages/why_do_hgfs.htm AND http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/ Paul M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 I put one on our S1 Elise which Dave Andrews has done a 200bhp job on, in order to delay the dread HGF as long as possible.....by removing the "known" problem (in the high powered Elise application) of the cooling system having been designed for a smaller engined FWD front engined car with a short run to the rad, which had the thermostat so positioned primarily for quick warmup in mostly urban use. I wondered if it was generally thought to be a good idea on higher powered K engined Sevens, given the idea that thermal shock due to the unusual placement of the OE stat "may encourage HGF" which I'm sure no-one would argue is a bit of a pain, and rather frequently reported on the K engines for whatever reasons. I'm also fitting an oil/air cooler, but will check temps before and after this conversion. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 My thinking was along the same lines as yours UncleF I didn't see it as being any worse than the current setup and so have decided to try it in the name of fiddling My belt protection is pretty much along the same route as Myles' - essentially an undertray, but mine is a 2-part affair that only goes just past the front of the engine rather than extending down the whole bay. I'm playing around with it at the moment so I'm not sure whether it'll stay or evolve into something else. Is yours going to be more along the lines of a belt-cover? It sounds great - I'll look forward to seeing the finished article Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Darren, This beltcover idea has got totally out of hand but in the best possible way! A good buddy of mine here whose company make all the jet engine supports for Airbus and Boeing has become involved......I'm sorting him out with a nice old Landy, while he's getting the prototype done to a micron perfect, waterjet-cut aluminium billet rear case configuration, and it will have a plexiglass front cover so you can check belt condition at any time. It will have two rubber dirtseals to go over the crank pulley axis and the Pace pump axis. It will have a Hall sender aimed at the Pace pulley to detect belt failure but I'm using the 3/4" Pace belt anyway so with luck this'll be less frequent than with the skinny 1/2" belt I've asked him to cost the thing for a 20 and 50 off run, and he's saying "Do you want it anodised?" as he can get this done far cheaper than the average punter. Should be reet spiffy! Watch this space! *smokin* Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 24 Jul 2007 13:14:40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 UF, so PACE have sorted the thicker belt now? Did you get a new pulley for the crank for this then? I was the one who requested this and was hoping to get the first one but I lost contact with Neil a bit. So can you just call up and order them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Yup! I ordered the crank pulley a while ago as it wasn't with the kit I got. I thought the belt looked like a rubber band on this honking great 1" wide pulley so rang them and they sent me a 3/4" belt. It arrived last week. They HAVE by the way, made a proper belt cover, but only very few, and for offroad racing where it's reckoned to be essential (I should think so too.... ) But they don't do a mass market one, if you could call it that... I'd say it's a very niche market indeed. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 24 Jul 2007 13:26:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Kevsta, do you know Mat Meeks? ICU live in High Wycombe.....he had an Elise and has friends who race Caterhams....I bought his Elise hardtop! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Corrr! Put me down as an interested party for the finished product UncleF - a nice bling belt cover as you describe would be very (hopefully at a cost a bit less than a landy tho.. 😬) Darren E Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 For those interested in a source of the 82 deg grey PRRT (part no. PEL500110) I have ordered 2 from this company Rimmer Bros They were about 7 quid something ex vat. Mine should be arriving later this week so so if you want to wait until then, I'll report back on receipt to hopefully confirming its correct. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Heheh....I'm only negociating the Landy for him, not SWAPPING it! 😬 Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 Rob, That's very cheap in comparison with the others, QED, Eliseparts etc. It seems to be without the hoses but even so the difference is over £100!!!! Let us know what you get and how you get on fitting it...... Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 UF, He's only buying the PRRT, not the kit, and £7 ish + THEFT is the trade price of these. I've bought 2 at that price, Darrren (k80rum) having bought one from me. It is the genuine part When I tried to buy just one or two hoses from the Freelander installation kit I was not able to do so ... you either buy the whole hose kit or nothing. I've decided to hold off installing mine until Ernie and I have time to manufacture a bespoke bypass water rail that will allow relocation of the old bypass return (or heater return if you have one) and header tank inlet up stream of the PRRT. I'm also going to move the water temp sender bosses. Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Edited by - Nifty on 25 Jul 2007 10:00:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 UF, no I don't know him. I have a friend with an Elise S1 (only recently purchased), I have seen a few Elises around here on repeated occurances. One guy has an Exige (Reg OU56 something) in grey that I see most days, sounds lovely! I may call them soon (Pace) and look to upgrade the belt. When I spoke to neil about it he said it was made that size because the first one requested it due to the kidney tank location being so close. I have mine on a short footwell and so have the space for a wider belt, hence they made the wider one, I just never got round to hassling them for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 *eek* Let's hope the fact my kidney tank is going to be living in an SV means I have a tad more clearance! I've removed the engine mount due to the kidney tank being where it is....I have long footwells on the SV and didn't fancy losing the extra length in the passenger side to site a cylinder tank. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 25 Jul 2007 12:07:33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well, the PRRT (2 of them) came today and I can confirm they are correct. I had previously bought the hose kit for 50quid (which included a higher temp rated stat) I run aero so don't have a heater making the plumbing super simple. If it ever stops raining over the weekend I'll fit it. Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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