Pierre Gillet Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 I would be interested in comparing the actual Torque and Power curves of the 1.6K SuperSport engine and the normal 1.6K to determine if it is really worth the conversion. Anybody any idea? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Seipel Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 I seem to remember having this conversation before. If you can imagine the power curve of the standard engine which in Rover 200 was approx 111Ps at 6000 rpm then modify the curve to 138 Ps at somewhere around 7000 rpm the power curve will not just follow the standard engine then suddenly jump up beyond 6000 rpm. If this is your fear, then fear not. The supersport does lose torque below about 3000 rpm but with a car weighing only 550kg (ish) you will never notice. From about 3500 to about 4500 rpm the curves are similar. From about 4500 rpm to the fuel cut off speed, torque and obviously power are much improved. I could dig out curves as I have them knocking around somewhere, but believe me and the many 1600 supersport owners, it's well worth the modification and yet still makes the car very, very useable day to day. Progressing on to individual throttle bodies although in conjunction with other changes will greatly improve power again, it starts to make the car less user friendly day to day. However many people will still claim that it's perfectly fine but not the pussy cat of the supersport. I bet this starts the comments flowing regarding the more highly tuned specifications! Lets see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S33VEN Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 Pierre, I have done the Supersport Conversion on my 1.8. I realise there will be differences, but I can thoroughly reccommend the upgrade. The engine remains tractable and the power gain is 'useful'. My only question is whether it is better to go for a mappable ECU, leaving room for further improvements without having the expence of another replacement ECU? As Tim said, lets wait for the comments. And, yes, I am going for the individual throttle bodies next. Tony Stattersfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted July 16, 2000 Author Share Posted July 16, 2000 Thank you Tim and Tony. Now I am going to ask some (naive) questions: -Is the Supersport conversion compatible with 95 octane grade or should I move to 98? -From 111 to 138 ps makes a large increase. Since I already have a KN air filter, the difference will be a little less I figure. However, I do not have yet the Caterham "competition" exhaust. I wonder how much the two (Supersport + competition exhaust - KN filter) would give? -Will the new cams be compatible with a later Throttle Bodies conversion? -Is the Supersport conversion compatible with the present MOT emission testing? -What is the gain that the pipe proposed by James Whiting to use the "competition" exhaust but without the pipes? Many questions, I recognize, but we so much like our Seven and its wonderful 1.6 K engine! Pierre exhaust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Seipel Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 The 1600 supersport tune is specified for 98 (or 97 nowadays since 98 is obsolete) however the actual tune was done oon 95 RON and the Competition exhaust. If you do trackdays then thats when 97 RON is best used for safety from detonation. You will have more than 111Ps as you said you do have the K&N filter, but you will still notice the difference. You will get a little more with the competion exhaust but you don't have to fit it at the same time add it later if funds are stretched. Supersport specification is definitely compatable with MOT emissions checks. The cams are compatable with individual throttles and in doing so should not make the car too much more "unfriendly" to drive. Most conversions when progressing to these throttles use wilder cams for more power improvement. However, you will not liberate as much power in the future staying with the supersport cams. If you only use the car for road and a bit of track use then I would stay with supersport. Competion can stilll be to good effect as well but if you become a very competative driver than more will be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted July 18, 2000 Author Share Posted July 18, 2000 Thanks Tim . Again, very useful information. The Supersport conversion is supposed to be a "Bolt-on" engine improvement. Does anyone have done it himself on the car ( without removing the engine)? Note that my level of competence is rather limited to trying to use the instruction of the Haynes aintenance manual. Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 Whilst on the subject of 1.6k supersport, can anybody recommend further engine up-grades. I'd be interested to know what is achievable for a limited budget (say £1500) and the desire to keep reliability high, plus on-road flexibility. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Seipel Posted July 24, 2000 Share Posted July 24, 2000 It's very easy to do and does not need the engine removing. If the Haynes manual describes just removing the standard head and cams and refitting them, you will be fine. If this page were bigger and I had the time to type out an instruction I would but....Anyway, I think if you do buy the kit I think Caterham would be able to supply the instructions. Mind you from past experience they are a little limited - Sorry Jez, if you get to read this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted July 29, 2000 Author Share Posted July 29, 2000 Thanks Tim, again for your help. Well I naively thought that the cams could be removed without removing the head!I remember an article by Roger King in Low Flying underlining the fact that removing the head needed special care given the concept of the engine. I understood that the head bolts brought some stiffness to the block or something like that...Did I undestand it right? Hope not... Relative to MOT tests, in France they use a "lambda" number which must be in the 0.97 - 1.03 range. Does this value seem familiar to you? How does it compare with the MOT values? In other words would my SS engine meet the French tests? Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory McLeod Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Never mind the technicalities, the competition exhaust is great fun in long tunnels and with careful timing of your change-down can scare the bejeezus out of schoolgirls waiting to cross roads.... oops here comes the warder with my medication, must go! Edited by - Rory McLeod on 30 Jul 2000 10:10:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I can vouch for the noise factor Rory. Suzi & I took a trip through the Dartford tunnel the other day; held it back 'till there was a big gap in front (the other lane of the dual carriageway can't come across as double white lines) then floor it in 2nd etc. Wonderful! Shame it's the bridge on the way back!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I know what you mean but have you been out with an R500? I'm afraid it makes my 1.6 SS seem rather tame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Yes Nick I have. A certain owner (he knows who he is; many thanks) treated me to a quick blat. I couldn't get over the way the engine 'buzzed' up so quickly. That 5-9 thou rpm area is very rapid indeed! Still, with my 1400 SS I may keep my licence longer!!!!!!! I find it a little strange that only a few years ago you bought an HPC with the provisio that you did the John Lyons High Performance Course. Now it's hand over £32'000 & you're away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Pierre, Re your question of 29/07/00 about the head bolts. The K-series has a rather strange construction in that the head bolts go right from the top of the engine through to the bottom, so they are therefore effectively the main cap bolts as well! The good news is that they do not need to be removed to do the Supersport conversion. You only need to undo the top half of the cam carrier (this is the second layer down - the top layer being the cam cover). As a first step to tuning, the Supersport conversion is very good value and retains good driveability. If you want more power you will need to spend considerably more money. The emissions question is very important and if you do opt for more tuning you MUST make sure that your new engine management system is compatible with the lambda sensor in the exhaust. rkingeng@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted July 31, 2000 Author Share Posted July 31, 2000 Roger, thank you very much for the clarification about the way the K engine is built , but giving the good news about replacing the cams. I feel very proud to have caught your attention. I read with great interest your articles in Low Flying. The last one on Track days was very informative and ...so humoristic! Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Seipel Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 The change of the cams really is quite easy. As Roger stated you don't have to remove the head bolts. Basically just on the engine all you need to do is set the engine to the right position (see build instruction), remove belt and cam pullies remove cam cover and carrier, remove old cams, fit new cams, clean up and re-stick cam carrier,(follow build diagram), fit new cam seals. Now the most important bit. Having not moved the crank position! fit the cam wheels to the cams so that the dowels of the cams fit into the slot of the pulley that has the specific title of the cam that it is and turn the cam so that that title can be read the right way up and is facing the ther pulley. IE for the inlet cam, dowel should be in the slot marked IN. Fit bolt and re-torque, then turn the wheel so that the word in with the marker is on the right side of the wheel pointing towards the exhaust cam. (see the book). Re-fit belt and there you go. Less than an hours work if you include cleaning off the old loctite from the carrier. Alternatively if you are intending to drive over to the UK and you come near Birmingham I'll do it for you. MOT emissions check for the K16 engine in Rover vehicle has a wider tolerance than those stated . Your MOT station should have the details. If not, email me. tim@seipel.freeserve.co.uk Regards Tim Seipel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted August 2, 2000 Author Share Posted August 2, 2000 Tim, your description of the way to make the conversion reads like a mystery book: fascinating! I am now convinced that I should be able to do the job. However, who knows what can happen when I use a wrench! So do not be surprised if a day or another I show up in Birmingham! By the way what is the exact product from Loctite that you recommend? Many thanks again, Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Seipel Posted August 2, 2000 Share Posted August 2, 2000 Loctite Hylogrip 2000 or 3000. Also available in service sachets from Rover dealers (Parts Department) Have fun! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted August 3, 2000 Author Share Posted August 3, 2000 Tim, I read with huge interest your instructions to make the SS conversion. It seems so easy that I feel ready to do it ...when my wife agree that she definitively needs some extra horse power on the Autoroutes around Paris where she races with BMWs or Mercedes whose drivers are really surprised to see -"cette chose"- challenging their taken for granted supremacy. If it happens in the next months ( she recognizes now that she sometimes need to rev the engine over 6000rpm), then, recognizing that everything can happen when I handle a wrench, please do not be surprised if I show up some day in Birmingham with two cams ( not in the engine, in the boot...). Now, seriously, Tim can you tell me type of Loctite product you make reference to? Many thanks, Cheers, Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesm Posted August 4, 2000 Share Posted August 4, 2000 is the supersport kit for the 1.6 worthwhile with the 5 speed 'box or, with the reduction in torque is it best mated with the 6 speed. i have the 1.6 k with 5 speed but i need more revs! James M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted August 4, 2000 Share Posted August 4, 2000 Reduction in torque at low rpm is very small. The *perceived* reduction is greater - because there's more go at high rpm you *think* that there's less at lower rpm. Go for it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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