Unclefester Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Still on my Pace DS fitment, it says in the Pace instructions "set crank timing to the 90° position, remove cover and check that camshaft sprocket timing marks are 'correctly aligned' So.....is that 90° on the bottom crank pulley? ie 3pm on a clockface measured using the little nick cut in the edge of the pulleywheel face? And what do they mean by "ensure the camshaft sprocket timing marks are correctly aligned"????? OK, I haven't got the K series workshop manual or a Haynes, but what is "correct alignment" in this case? At the moment, both the "exhaust" arrows on the cam sprockets are at about 10pm or 270° Here's a picture of the thing set at 3pm on the lower pulley mark here Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine]here *eek* Edited by - unclefester on 2 May 2007 23:00:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Is it to do with 90 degrees before top dead centre on no. 1 piston, or something like that ?? That view of the engine looks very familiar - except for the sexy red paint !! ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 M25 I dunno, beats the hell outta me. Why oh why can't they give clear instructions? Pace do a nice complete instruction manual of about 15 pages but it gets off to a poor start with this sort of gibberish. "The 90° position"........................ 🤔 Can anyone clear this up, before I flip my toupeé ? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 1 May 2007 15:26:28 Edited by - Unclefester on 1 May 2007 15:32:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Unclefester 90 degrees BTDC. see here click on link to K series engine, then about 1/3 down is a diagram and photo Malcolm Edited by - Englishmaninwales on 1 May 2007 15:46:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevsta Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 I fitted the pace dry sump last year. Where are you up to and what problem are you having with it? I presume you are going to take the pulley off stage. In which case, put the engine at 90 degrees before top dead centre (90 BTDC). Then lossen the bolt (engine in gear, someone on brake pedal and a lot of torque!)...don't forget to lock the cams. With engine at 90 degrees you have no danger of the valves hitting pistons while you are loosening the crank bolt (Don't do it with cam locking tool in as it puts too much pressure on the belt/cam wheels etc). If you have any more problems or if this doesn't answer it then I'd be happy to talk you through it on 07976 292942 I'm no super mechanic but as I have done it I might be able to help. Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 Kevsta, I can't lock the damn engine with the brakes as it is sitting on the bench and has no flywheel on it. How do I measure the 90°....with the notch on the crank pulley? Is that 90° as in 3pm on a clockface? The problem has now worsened as I tried bracing the flywheel end of the crank on a bolt through the "ear" on the sump where it bolts through to the bellhousing, and succeeded in completely mullering the thread on one of the flywheel bolts...it's now an unuseable SPS 12.9 M bolt. There has to be a special tool which allows you to boly the crank flange properly to a flat metal sheet area, with two extensions fro the bellhousing bolts to locate. When checking no bits of thread had gone inside the crank flange with a magnetic probe, I discovered iron filings on the magnet, apparently from inside. I'm now obliged to take the whole engine to pieces and clean everything, or at least remove the sump which I've just put on, to see why there are iron filings inside the flange area. I assume the area immediately inside the flywheel bolt holes is open to the general oil system, as when I first removed the flywheel bolts the sump oil flowed out in large amounts......at least 4 litres I think! The oil must have drained back into the engine from the drysump tank at some time in the past. It is possible that the iron filings got in through some of the flywheel bolt holes as I sawed off the small crank pulley from the larger diameter part last night, but I don't think the bolts were out of the holes at the time, and I certainly wasn't blowing stuff around with compressed air or anything I hope that just removing the sump will let me see enough to clean any remaining muck out, what I did when I saw the filings was to pump fresh oil in through the top bolt hole, and see what it looked like when it came out the bottom one. Anyone have any ideas on what I need to do to be able to be sure I have a clean engine interior? ☹️ Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 OK I see how to set 90°BTDC.....line up the exhaust arrows on the sprockets with the lines all horizontal. I now have the slight problem of apparently allowing iron filings into the engine through the crankshaft flange......all other entries had been scrupulously filled with bits of foam rubber and sealed with tape.....and I'm still not convinced that anything did blow in, but my magnetic probe could have picked up some filings from off the bench, and made me think that they had come from inside the block. I don't think it's safe to assume this, though, but I do wonder how much I can do by removing the sump in the way of removing any risk. To be 100% safe, I'd need to take the engine to a K series spacialist builder and explain the situation, as the best thing would probably be a bottom end stripdown and clean! *eek* 🙆🏻 At the moment, IF there are any filings in there from having flown fairylike in through the open boltholes on the crank flange, they will by now have headed south in the oil I injected, and be in the newly cleaned sump (theres no other oil in there, it's a drysump, and I had cleaned it thoroughly before putting it on yesterday. Maybe if I get a new gasket tomorrow (I had used the old one with anaerobic sealer) I can clean it all out ok. What do you reckon engine builders? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Fester, a bit of internet trawling can work wonders for engine info............ Lotus Elise Manuals are available online and contain the original Rover workshop manuals for K-Series engines under engine. Ian Green and Silver Roadsport 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Fester don't use a gasket with the Pace dry sump just face to face with anaerobic selant works fine And I'll bet you picked up the filings from elsewhere so don't fret just throw it to gether they are tough buggers K engines 😬 jj N.I. L7C AR. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 You check 90 BTDC by measuring the height of the pistons through the spark plug holes. All the pistons will be at the same height. Best to check fundamental measurements rather than timing marks on any dodgy engine you got second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 I use Peters method 2 kids plastic drinking straws works a treat every time jj N.I. L7C AR. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 Peter you are right, there are some wideboys about After ringing John Howe I've calmed down a bit. I took the sump off, checked where the alleged filings would have ended up, blew carb cleaner in, removed all oil from the sump and scavange tubes, removed all anaerobic jam from where it would have been floating around with the oil and reused my modified gasket after cleaning all traces of jam off. Put it back on, finding another knackered thread which needs helicoiling....someone had overdone it with bolts which seem to be too short if used with plain and spring washers. Need to get a load of 8mm bolts and safety nuts.....I do wonder why they didn't use steel inserts here, it's a bit naff, the threads in the block appear to be as strong as MDF! I rather doubt that this car will be ready for the French 50th Anniversary trackday at Pau-Arnos, so I will be there with Twinkerbelle the Lotus TC engined car. Quite appropriate really. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 If you remove the rear crank oil seal it will allow you to clean out any debris/iron filings that may have entered via the flywheel bolt holes in the crank flange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Rob, Why didn't I think of that? No, don't bother telling me, it's because I DON'T HAVE THE HAYNES MANUAL that's my excuse anyway. Errrrrrr.......so HOW do I remove the seal? Is this explained in the manual? I'd better get one I think! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 PS I used to live in Clifton too.....!!! How's the Lion pub? 😬 Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 I wouldnt bother with the haynes manual - simply download the elise workshop manual mentioned above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Good idea....I missed the link! I now have the crank pulley bolt off. I borrowed my friendly garageiste's bigger airwrench and turned up the pressure on my compressor from 6.5 bar to 10 bar and it practically leapt off! No need to lock anything......mind you I had soaked it in penetrating oil overnight which may have helped. I'm taking the engine to Gilles garage this afternoon as he has the cam locking device, so we can take the old oilpump internals out for fitting the Pace pump, and we will sacrifice the flange/flywheel end oilseal as I want to feel confident I'm not going to cause the Pace pump to inhale a load of iron filings on startup.....it would scavange the filings before they reach the filter. It would 'probably' be ok to leave the debris there if there is any, as it's a sort of pocket behind the flange which is isolated from the main oilways, the only connection seems to be half way up the height of the flange, but I still don't want to risk leaving it as is. Silly to risk a good engine for a £10 oilseal. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 The link from MrLocust to "Lotus Elise Manuals" doesn't work! Anyone have the right address? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 2 May 2007 11:59:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurtle Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 The link worked last night!! Just checked it and now it does not!! I have the files at home which I could sendto you tonight if you dont have any joy getting hold of them today. Jas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Thanks Hurtle, that would be most handy! I'll Blatmail you my address. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 All fixed! We removed the rear oilseal carefully, it looked clean inside but carb spray made sure....seal perfect so re-used it. Oil pump out, removed centre rotor noting rough state of lobes where it looks as if it's eaten metal at some point, so I'm glad I did need to remove it. Turned down original double pulley removing smaller pulley so as to allow the new Pace toothed sprocket to fit. Trial fitted the oilpump discovering one missing steel boss out of the two where the pump fits to the block....I'll ask Pace to send me one. Also another knackered thread where this lower front pump bolt goes....I need to get some helicoils in. All in all I'm happy with the way it's going. *wink* Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 seems like previous owner of the engine needs to buy a torque wrench or stop working out in the gym, judging by the number of helicoils you've needed 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Well yes......though I doubt the immediate previous owner was responsible, in fact. Does Peter Carmichael look like the Governor of California? I don't doubt PC has a torquewrench and knows how to use it. Before Peter is an unknown musclebound non-torquewrench owning mystery person, prior to that it was the PTP race engine for 2003, I think! Then PTP 'completely rebuilt it' replacing 'everything but the block.' Maybe Rover K blocks are made of MDF? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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