Heel and Toe.

[Old Septimus]

Surely, you only need to H&T if you are DDCing. DDCing is a good thing on any car with a manual change as the changes go through better and quicker and if you want to brake at the same time H&T is essential. With size 10s I can H&T in an old SIII which has a very narrow peddle box. If you are not DDCing why blip unless you are max powering?

[TonyR]

In my rallying days only ever used LFB only in FWD car.

 

TonyR

[Miraz]

HNT maintains the balance of the car during the downshift, if you are braking whilst turning in and a downshift shifts the brake balance to the rear of the car for a bit then it may well get quite exciting and you will not carry the same speed through the corner.

 

LFB is also used on RWD rally cars - although these are increasingly rare, it allows you to induce massive oversteer whilst under heavy braking - only really used on hairpins on tarmac or hard dirt surfaces where the traction is reliable enough to get away with it.

[Red SLR]

Andrew, the course is now get in car, engage D and press the pedal on the right. If you come to a red light press the big pedal in the middle, or hit the B&Ts. smile.gif

 

X777CAT

[Peter Carmichael]

Simon, I am about to get angry again because you are using the same technique as Dave Edmands to wind me up. I really like people to read what I write before they tell me I am wrong.

 

There is only room for so many truths in the world which means that what you experience and what I experience are the same things. Our perceptions and preceptions may differ. I go to the trouble to use precise language to bridge the gap and people seem to think I use more words than necessary and they ignore the ones that they deem redundant.

 

Do you have any issue with my definition: "[Left foot braking] which means applying the brakes with the left foot so you can do other interesting things with the right foot, like er... let me see... modulate/apply the throttle at the same time"?

 

In your example 200m bend are you (constructively) hitting the brakes at the same time as the throttle or are you just using the convenience of a spare foot to do your braking? If the latter then it doesn't fall in my definition, it isn't left foot braking and we are in a state of vigorous agreement.

 

Ignorance is what you have before you learn. Ignorance is what you sustain if you refuse to learn. Ignorance is not to be decried until you find someone content to wallow in it. Someone who remains ignorant despite the best efforts of well-intentioned and patient teachers deserves to be mocked in many and devious ways. To label someone as ignorant is not in itself an insult - merely an observation.

 

I, however, *am* rude and I don't care how big you are. (I think I will allow myself a smiley at the end of all this because it is written with a smile smile.gif).

[Red SLR]

Say again?

 

Only joking, well I do like to wind up as many people as I can.

 

I consider my self to be a fairly quick driver and although I have only held my licence for 4 years almost to the day I know I am quicker than most people. I however have difficulty, unlike yourself, in explaining how I go about my drive.

 

 

 

 

 

X777CAT

[Al Crickmore]

Awww. Friends again. That's how it's done boys and girls. wink.gif

 

Humph...I want my car...NOW sad.gif

[John E]

Ah ha but by your own admission Simon you had difficulty in keeping up with me and I'm an old git in an x flow who does not use left foot braking cos I was always told to use it on loose surfaces in a front wheel drive car or rear wheel if you wanted to provock over steer but I do heel and toe, not for the reasons listed i.e. to avoid the back end locking etc etc but because I love the bloody noise. And I did race Karts in 250 gbox, now they are quick but would not respond to middle and right pedal being down at the same time.

[Red SLR]

Ahh, that was over a year ago JE! I now have more confidence in the 7....

 

 

X777CAT

[John E]

No no no no no, its because you were left foot braking, but all of the time, you have to take your foot off the middle pedal when you want to go quicker.

[Red SLR]

Ahh!! So thats why my front brakes were on fire.

 

 

 

X777CAT

[John E]

nuff said. How was Aintree, before it got covered in horse muck

[Red SLR]

The 2hr session on Friday was brilliant, quite a few 7's there.

 

I did 3 Sisters on Sunday, first round of the LDMC.

 

I finnished 5th in class, not bad for my very first event.

 

What really hacked me off was I was faster in practice than I was in the timed runs!

 

I am hoping for a top 3 finnish next time there.

 

 

 

X777CAT

[Buda]

I am ignorant (using Peters Definition) however could someone explain the following:

 

I thought the following--

 

Firstly, when you accelerate the rear of the car squats as you develop grip.

Secondly, when you brake the front of the car squats as you develop grip.

(I know my definition of grip will be wrong but the fact is that is the effect of these forces when applied - I think)

Thirdly oversteer/understeer is happens due to lack of grip and momentum.

Surely if you can apply both a braking force to the front of the car and an accelerating force to the rear of the car at effectivly the same time this will lead to an increase in grip and thus stability - not speed, hence why people use the technique.

 

By the way I have never tried left foot braking and do not plan to.

 

Edited by - Buda on 9 Apr 2002 15:20:48

[Violet Elizabeth]

Wow, what an education. I thought blipping the throttle as your braked for a roundabout or T-junction was to alert other road-users and nearby pedestrians to the presence of your rather smart motor teeth.gif thus allowing them to witness your tyre-smoking progress towards your chosen exit tongue.gif

 

Edited by - Noger on 9 Apr 2002 15:10:51

[paulyb]

If there is no advantages for left foot braking on a rear-wheel drive car how come all the F1 drivers do it?

[Buda]

Isn't it something to do with these new gearbox thingies, nothing else to do with their left foot?

[Red SLR]

If you watch the cameras that cover the footwell area esp in USA etc where they still use foot clutch then you will see the drivers feet dancing all over the pedals.

 

X777CAT

[danwhiley]

This left-foot braking thing is starting to confuse me. If the front end's braking and the back end's accelerating, doesn't that mean the car's getting shorter? [:-/]

 

I used to think that the reason karters break and accelerate at the same time was so that they don't have to pick up the speed again, and the reason F1 drivers LFB was because they can (!) and so this saves the tiniest of time taken up in moving the foot from one pedal to the other. I could possibly see an advantage in LFB in that you could have a smoother weight transition if you can skip this tiny gap between braking and accelerating, but my biggest issue is with the "slowing and accelerating simultaneously" claim.

 

Here's a big mass of metal, plastic and flesh. It has a force acting on it. F=ma. only one "a" that I can see, which is probably resulting from the vector sum of F(acc) and F(brake).

 

Sorry, got all sciency then...

 

Dan.

 

[Red SLR]

If you take a 700bhp Gp B RS200 rally car and drive it on a forest track you will see that as you slide the car into corners the brakes are needed to slow the car, but the throttle is needed to balance the car, so its just balancing the brakes and throttle.

 

If you look at WRC cars today esp on snow you will see the brake lights flashing like mad in the bends.

 

X777CAT

[danwhiley]

Feeling dumb now, but why not just lift off the gas a bit? Same effect...

[sjwb]

Dream on brother.

 

Steve B

[oilyhands]

I thought the Hart developed BDT EVOs in the RS200 only made 500-550BHP..? maybe you've been spending too much time on your playstation Simon.

 

Oily

[Buda]

Once again, I'm no expert but my logic as as follows:

 

1. when you accelerate, the torque through the rear wheels effectivley pushes the car down on to the ground, if you lift off the gas then this force is reduced so therefore grip is reduced and subsequently stability - Lifting off mid corner dramatically is bad and results in crashing (thats a technical term for me), so therefore lifting off a bit must have a similar if significantly lesser effect.

 

2. When you brake the force applied is forward of the centre of gravity hence the nose dives and pushes the front of the car down onto the ground.

 

Obviously if you brake and accelerate at the same time the car is trying to squash up but it can't due to the rigidity of it so instead the result seems to be (to me anyway) that the forces push the car harder into the ground i.e. more stability in the corner.

 

What I can't understand if the forces involved in left foot breaking in a front wheel drive car unless this is a reversal of the above theory.

 

I'm possibly talking comlete crap here however and would appreciate someone to confirm this.

 

Buda - phd in domestic science, colouring in and angling

[Andrew Russell]

I don't think anybody is arguing the merits of left foot braking on a full-on gravel spec rally car, with brake discs the size of bin-lids, and fully adjustable bias, and massive power outputs.

 

However, when on tarmac the level of grip is so much higher and in a car with relatively modest power levels, non adjustable brakes and, dare I say it, perhaps a driver of less experience/ability than the established super stars of the motorsport world, any benefit of this activity would be marginal and driving in a more conventional manner probably just as quick.

 

The risks of de-stabilising a car by left foot braking on the road I feel would outweigh any possible advantages.

 

Andrew