mav Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 What is the difference between the purple and gold dry sump pumps? Has anyone gone for the new system with the separate oil tank? Any views as to benefits of the separate tank ot the bell housing system, as an order will be going in soon for a car I'm rebuildiung for a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Mav I have the seprate CC DS system. I bought it as its cheeper and the engine did not need to come out of the car. Some advantages might be bigger reseve of oil 6.5L rather than 4.5L. If I was doing it again I would not order the whole kit. I change the route of the oil pipes. I did not like the pipe from the tank to the sump going over the bell housing. I got a new pipe and bought took it from the tank round and under the exhaust to the front of the car and then back to the input joint. As for for the other one I changed the joining angle as i got the tank modified to have a bar on it so i could bolt this to the foot well. Also I you got the tank from Pace you could have a temprature bose put in. I have and moniter the oil temp this way. Mav I hope this makes some sence happy to send pics if you would like. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Mav I have a brand new unused bell tank (but without unions, pipes and tower) for sale if you want to save some dosh (CC will sell the rest of the kit without penalty).The purple pump was fitted to the 1400 and has a lower pumping capacity than the gold pump. I understand the purple is marginal for track use on 1600/1800. The bell tank is a neat installation, but has a lowish oil capacity. Some people also have been critical of the tower's ability to de-aerate the oil, compared to a larger separate tank. But then you won't have to worry about removing the passenger footwell. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 David, Pics and details of parts ordered from elsewhere would be great. 😶🌫️ E-mail is in my profile above. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Mav, Avoid the purple pump, it doesnt have the capacity and is driven at a lower speed, I have had several incidences of engine failure brought about by the purpel pumps inability to keep up with the engine's requirements. If it were me I would go for a dual scavenge system like the Pace. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Malcolm I'll be in touch. Oily, Thanks for the info. Gold it will be then... Any other info / experiences appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Mav one word PACE. 😬 😶🌫️ jj N.I. L7C AR. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 JJ, Not an option. The owner wnats to stay original Caterham products... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Mav, I don't like the idea of the pressure pump being belt driven as in the Pace setup, so CC parts aren't all bad. I'm thinking of making a little electronic device to monitor if scavenge pump rotates as even if it stops I have a split-second until the pressure drops! /regin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinfourth Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 and then a few seconds later the engine siezes What i would be tempted to do would be have it so if your pump stops the ignition is cut At which point someone is going to say this is dangerous if your engine suddenly stops to which i will say fine but what would you prefer your engine suddenly quits and a change of underwear or your engine quits and maybe locks the rear wheels 10 seconds later where you have an change of underwear and thorough wallet humping The happy handle made me do it here Click here to find 7s in their natural environment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiddy1 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I have run a 200 bhp K on a home made set up with a caterham purple pump, and external tank, I have never had any issues with its capability on both road, track and sprints and the system cost about £800 instead of the £1700 for teh caterham full system Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I wouldn't want my engine to stop automaticly. It's very frightning if it does when you balance the car on a knife-edge... In fact I'd say it's unsafe! So I'll just stick with my verrrrrrrrry bright red lamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Tiddy, While I appreciate that you have had no problems, I have personal experience of many that have, the success of a system is not measured by those examples that function as intended, but rather by the incidence of failure. The incidences in this case are rather too high especially when there are known better alternatives and the end result of failure is engine destruction. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Dave Jackson's 215bhp 1.6k was notable for running the purple pump system successfully. The purple pump was all there was when the Superlight R racers started out. The PTP car I had was purple-pumped. The key issue seems to be not doing something daft like running sealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Which begs the question ''Why was the gold pump introduced?"... Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 no doubt the gold pump is more effective than the purple pump and the twin scavenge is better than the Gold. Even with the gold pump there is a risk that the Rover pressure pump is feeding faster than the gold pump is extracting ....... or so I'm told ...... I did run the purple pump, but only because that is what my car originally came with. And yes I didnt have any known issue. However I did "upgrade" to the gold pump . Personally I take the view that the gold pump caterhmam system is not optimal but preferable to the belt falling off the Pace system. Providing the belt on the caterham system doesnt also fall off . Its also worth considering when was there ever an issue with the R400 race cars and oil pumps etc - none that I have ever heard of ? ( ) the pace is also a bit of a buggar to fit as you have to remove the old oil pump etc. sorry if any of this doesnt realy help ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 10, 2007 Leadership Team Share Posted April 10, 2007 Mav, back to the original question ....... If your friend is buying a newd/s system then it's down to 3 choices: 1. Full Caterham gold pump system 2. the same but with a separate tank in place of the belltank (surely wouldn't make sense if you can cut the cost by buying Malcolm's belltank?) 3. Pace system ie. the purple pump will not be an option as it is no longer supplied by Caterham. I assembled a complete Caterham d/s setup by buying s/h bits, including a purple pump, at a very favourable cost of around £700. The purple pump is fine for road use and occasional tracking, but anything more and the gold pump is going to be preferable. IIRC the gold pump was introduced due to oil starvation problems on the SLR racers. It may depend upon your friend's needs and budget? I've witnessed oil starvation issues in a purple pumped SLR on track - 190bhp running ACB-10s. It's probably not an issue though if the car is something like an 1800SS and is on more sensible rubber? (prepare myself to be lambasted!!!). Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 New CC system it will be Stu. was not aware they stopped supplying the Purple pump, so only decision now is down to type of tank. Thats all in hand. Thanks for all of your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 how can you get oil starvation in a belltank ? regardless of the pump unless you run the oil level so low that it exposes the pump exit of the belltank or you get the oil to move away from the pump eixt under cornering as its too low a level or the pump couldnt scavenge as quck as the Rover pressure pump was pumping and hence the engine filled with oil just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 ps you can still buy the purple pump directly from Titan Motorsport, but its more expensive than the gold 😬(honestly ) Edited by - Dave J on 10 Apr 2007 11:28:01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 10, 2007 Leadership Team Share Posted April 10, 2007 how can you get oil starvation in a belltank ? regardless of the pump unless you run the oil level so low that it exposes the pump exit of the belltank or you get the oil to move away from the pump eixt under cornering as its too low a level or the pump couldnt scavenge as quck as the Rover pressure pump was pumping and hence the engine filled with oil A master at answering ones own questions 😬 Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Ok smartie pants ..... so it wasnt a system design issue then - just that you didnt fill it up with oil (doh!)or that the scavenge pump was knackered . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Dave, it could potentially be that the pump is a bit marginal and that under extreme cornering loads the oil moves away from the pickup so it pools in the sump, and that the periods when the oil *is* in contact with the pickup (under extreme cornering blah blah) are not sufficiently long for a smaller pump to keep up absolutely all the time. ISTR the general RofT is a scavenge pump 2x the feed pump, which will be great until the pickup is running air for over 50% of the time. This I suspect *cuold* happen if in a long corner or a series of bends, running slicks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Dave, it could potentially be that the pump is a bit marginal and that under extreme cornering loads the oil moves away from the pickup so it pools in the sump, and that the periods when the oil *is* in contact with the pickup (under extreme cornering blah blah) are not sufficiently long for a smaller pump to keep up absolutely all the time. which would result in air in the pressure pump if it wasnt for the 5 L of oil that is also stored in the belltank that is fed to the pressure pump first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 10, 2007 Leadership Team Share Posted April 10, 2007 Dave, not my car, but yes it couldbe a knackered pump, but as BOSS says it is more likely that the capacity of the pump is not enough to allow for the fact that air is being scavenged more on track than in a road situation (due to greater cornering forces) and effectively the pump cannot keep up with scavenging the oil between times. The k-Series does have a nasty habit of retaining oil in the head and the against the walls of the block when cornering hard. When I ran a purple pump I did wonder whether in an 1800SS it would be practical to fit a bigger crank pulley to spin the pump faster relative to the rpm of the engine? The pump was used in the standard SLR d/s install which will rev to over 8000, therefore a 10% (?) increase in speed would surely be within the design capacity. I do know that Titan have been asked this and recommended keeping to the standard pulley. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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