Oil Additives

[markb905]

Would you put Slick 50, or Molyslip in your car?. Given all the issues raised about oil starvation etc on many cars is this not a suitable safety net.

[Fred]

someone told me you dont need it in a rover k engine somthing to do with it being aluminium dont know question.gif

 

fredid=blue> smile.gif

[Peter Carmichael]

No.

 

It is cr@p sold by charlatans that stands more chance of destroying your engine.

[AMMO]

DON'T DO IT.

 

AMMO

[markb905]

Thanks for the advice, i think I've got the message, it is intresting though, because both products have been around for some time, my dad was using Molislip in the 60's, nuf said.

 

Mark Bennett

[Fred]

peter or ammo can you give us

a technical reason why not to question.gif

 

fredid=blue> smile.gif

[murph7355]

As soon as a good technical reason FOR using it pops up I'm sure there'll be 100 easy ones for not doing smile.gif

 

Oil companies spend billions developing oils to a very exacting and finely controlled standard. They try all manner of permutations and combinations in their efforts. They run it in lots of different engines and put on millions of miles on said engines (the engine test bays at Mobil were something to behold), carefully analysing results as they go.

 

Their products are tested against industry standards (for the ratings etc) and then they go to market where they are tested more and more in many different applications, including some of the harshest known (racing etc).

 

And then you go and drop in a litre of 13 quid chemical that's meant to make it work even better.

 

At best these things won't harm anything. At worst they'll completely knacker the chemical composition of the nice oil you put in your car and then who knows what will happen.

 

Also ask yourself why, when they've gone to all the effort to differentiate their product as the best you can buy, would the oil companies not drop in some Slick whatever to every can they sell in order to improve it?

 

If some independently verified evidence could be slapped down I might start to believe some of the claims. But it won't happen. Car mags have run a number of articles on this sort of thing and have yet to prove anthing (unless it was in What Car which I don't read).

 

Avoid them.

 

As for lots of people using it, people like to believe things like the claims that are made for Slick etc. A couple of million people paid good money for MkI Nissan Micras. It doesn't make them good.

 

PS Don't use engine flush either.

 

 

[Phil]

Why not use engine flush?

have you seen or tried the modern engine flushes such as Wynns as these are added to the oil so still providing lubrication and bonding the sludge/varnish to the oil so when drained removing all deposits from the engine leaving it clean, the new oil has nothing to pick up when the engine is refilled.

all the engine flush is doing is the same as any modern oil picking up the waste, holding in suspension rather than sticking it to the sump etc.

 

 

[AMMO]

You shouldn't have sludge or varnish in your engine if you change your oil at regular intervals. Here we are in the realms of people buying old bunged up bangers and doing something to rectify the situation.

 

I don't know of any race teams using an additive in their oil full stop. My race team was sponsored by a major oil manufacturer and we got to use pre-production products that were not available to the general public. The idea of putting some gloop in their carefully formulated brews would make them pull their hair out.

 

There is no shortage of people ready to take money from the gullible.

 

AMMO

[Tight fart]

Yes the oil companies do know how to make some very good oils, but weather they let the public have them is a very different matter.

I was speaking to a F1 engineer at Cosworth who reckoned the biggest gains in power in recent years had come through improved lubrication. ( I thought it would be a knock on from materials used in the turbo era).

Do you believe that ford want oils sold, that let their engines run for ever, I was told years ago that soap powder companies had brought the patent for a machine that didn't use detergent.

That may or may not be true but the same applies to the motor industry.

 

Agree with engine flush though, alright for the lawn mower.

 

Edited by - r phillips on 5 Apr 2002 09:23:29

[Blatman]

all the engine flush is doing is the same as any modern oil picking up the waste, holding in suspension rather than sticking it to the sump etc.

Isn't that the argument for NOT using engine flushquestion.gif I always use modern oils, as does everyone else, unless you're buying unopened oil from an antique shop............teeth.gif

[Chelspeed]

Extract from US advertising standards type peeps:

 

QUAKER STATE ADS FOR SLICK 50

ARE FALSE AND MISLEADING, FTC CHARGES

 

The Federal Trade Commission has charged Quaker State - Slick 50, Inc., the manufacturer of Slick 50, the best-selling auto

engine treatment in the U.S., with making false and unsubstantiated advertising claims. According to the FTC, ads for Slick 50 that tout tests showing improved engine performance are false and its claims of reduced engine wear are unsubstantiated.

 

Quaker State - Slick 50 is based in Houston, Texas. Since its 1978 introduction, Slick 50 has attracted about 30 million users

world-wide. Slick 50 retails for about $18 a quart, and the company claims to have about 60% of the engine treatment market.

 

"Slick 50's ads claim that compared to motor oil alone, it reduces engine wear, lengthens engine life, and provides a host of other benefits. The claims sound good, but the evidence doesn't back them up,” said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. “We believe the ads exaggerate the lack of protection motor oils provide modern engines at start-up, as well as the risk of premature engine failure. The premature engine failure Slick 50 claims to guard against is uncommon, and the company lacks reliable evidence it would be prevented by using Slick 50, in any case," she said. "In fact, all the evidence we've seen so far suggests that the best thing you can do for your car’s engine is to get an oil change performed at manufacturer recommended intervals," she said. "People who want to maximize their automobile performance and enhance its long life should read the owner's manual and follow the directions.”

 

Slick 50 is the most recent in a series of FTC cases challenging allegedly deceptive ad claims for oil additives or high octane fuel. “Last year, STP Corporation and its parent corporation, First Brands, paid an $888,000 civil penalty to settle FTC charges that they were making false and unsubstantiated claims for their engine treatment," Bernstein said.

 

According to the FTC complaint detailing the charges in this case, Slick 50 aired television and radio commercials and published brochures carrying claims such as:

 

"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine...

 

" With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start- up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50, 000 miles," and;

 

"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine. "

 

According to the FTC, these claims and others falsely represented that auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear without Slick 50. It is uncommon, however, for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they are treated with Slick 50 or not. Finally, the FTC alleges that Slick 50 neither coats engine parts with a layer of PTFE nor meets military specifications for motor oil additives.

 

The FTC complaint also specifically charges that Slick 50 did not have adequate substantiation for its advertising claims that, compared to motor oil alone, the product:

 

reduces engine wear;

reduces engine wear by more than 50%;

reduces engine wear by up to 50%;

reduces engine wear at start-up;

extends the duration of engine life;

lowers engine temperatures;

reduces toxic emissions;

increases gas mileage; and

increases horsepower.

 

The complaint also alleges that the company did not have adequate substantiation for its advertising claims that one treatment of Slick 50 continues to reduce wear for 50,000 miles and that it has been used in a significant number of U.S. government vehicles.

 

Finally, the complaint challenges ads stating that “tests prove” the engine wear claims made by Slick 50. In fact, according to the FTC complaint, tests do not prove that Slick 50 reduces engine wear at start up, or by 50%, or that one treatment reduces engine wear for 50,000 miles.

 

The order the FTC is seeking would prohibit misrepresentations about the benefits of using Slick 50 and require that ad claims

be backed by competent and reliable evidence. In addition, if the facts are found as alleged, and issuance of a cease and desist order alone is inadequate to protect consumers, the Commission may require corrective advertising or other affirmative disclosures. It may also apply to a federal court to obtain restitution for consumers.

 

The complaint also names three subsidiaries: Slick 50 Management, Inc., Slick 50 Products Corp., and Slick 50 Corp.

 

The Commission vote to issue the complaint was 5-0.

 

NOTE: The Commission issues a complaint when it has "reason to believe" that the law has been or is being violated, and it

appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. The issuance of a complaint is not a finding or ruling that the respondent has violated the law. The complaint marks the beginning of a proceeding in which the allegations will be ruled upon after a formal hearing.

 

end quote

 

Shame ASA in the UK don't have the nerve to prosecute the charlatans here over the various fuel catalysts, splitfire plugs, etc etc in the UK.

[DohNut]

Re Wynns engine flush - I you do have deposits in your engine and you put in some engine flush, if it does indeed disolve all the deposits and bring them into circulation then you drain the oil there is no way that ALL of the deposits or the product are going to be removed. when you refill the oil you will have the remenants of the deposits in the oil. As the oil filter has a pressure relief bypass valve when you re-start with the cold oil the filter will be bypassed circulating it round the engine. - At least that is the theory that has kept the tin of engine flush sitting unused on my garge shelf.

 

On a more general note oil does have brand loyalty and there is a percieved benefit in using a better oil so it is worth while for the oil companies investing in improving the product as people will pay a premium. Petrol however is a price driven comodity with no brand loyalty so there is little incentive to exceed the minimum standards. The exception appears to be the new shell fuel which I understand has increased octane rating as well as other additives - But what happened to Texaco clean system3?

N

[markb905]

Just to widen this topic slightly, given that a lot of 7 owners do relativly low milages, if they are sticking to a yearly service what is the point of puting synthetic oil in the car when it's changed after 2-3k miles, particularly if its mainly been used on the road.

 

personaly I'm sticking with synthetic and 6k services for a road based VVC, ie services every 10 months or so,

 

Mark Bennett

[murph7355]

I guess the point of changing regularly is that the oil is what keeps your engine alive, so no matter how long it's in there for you want it to be as well protected as it can be.

 

Generally a synthetic oil will give much better protection during the more strenuous times in an engine's life (startup from cold, high revs etc) which happen all the more in a 7, even over 2-3k miles.

 

Mobil 1 also smells nice when you've thrashed the pants off the car!

 

Phil - engine flush is another harsh chemical to add to the system. There is absolutely no way you can get rid of it totally from the engine once you've put it in (I suppose a number of flushes with proper oil might, but at what cost in time and product), and as far as I'm aware part of it's supposed job is to break down some of the nasty deposits your engine has in it so that they can be emptied via the sump plug.

 

The problem is that this breaking down cannot be that clever. By definition it will have an effect on the other fluids in the engine.

 

So you flush the engine, fill it up with lovely fresh oil, the flush residue mixes with said oil and bingo. A1 quality oil becomes very used almost instantly.

 

I don't work for oil firms any more (chosen a different route to Satan), and I'm not blind to a lot of their hyperbole (petrol for one!). But engine oil is one area that they are very hot on, and I never saw or heard of engine flush or Slick xx being used in their test labs.

 

As for the best stuff not being available to the public, one day it will be. The problem is this stuff costs a lot of money. How many people nearly fainted when synthetic first came to market at 10+ quid a litre?

 

Also, with car manufacturers soon to be held responsible for scrapping dead cars, I reckon there'll be some good incentives for making engines last a long time. It's also being demanded by customers (how many cars now have 20k mile service intervals? You couldn't do that on Asda 20W50 at 2 quid a gallon...).

 

Edited by - Andy Murphy on 5 Apr 2002 10:52:12

[AMMO]

Looks like the people who make Slick 50 are a bunch of lying turds.

 

AMMO

[markb905]

I'm glad I asked the original question, it certainly has prompted a lively exchange of ideas! on Slick ** and other additives, I will stick with changing the oil and making sure it's topped up correctly, which also apears to be a black art on K's that need to be checked hot and running. Now then if I add some nice black Molyslip at least I could see where the oil was on the dip stick, only joking

 

Mark

[Phil]

Thanks for all the replies.

have used wynns engine flush for years and have never had a problem, as I said it provides lubrication as it does its job and it stops the oil sticking to the walls etc of the engine so when you drain it out everything comes out.

The best time to use it is when an engine has been treated badly and has had the wrong oil in causing sludge etc as this realy does clean it out.

As far as all of you are concerned, you all look after your engines and use good oil with regular changes and therfore should not suffer from sludge etc.

The main reason I have mentioned the Wynns flush is the fact you all complain about sticky hydraulics on K series engines after a good thrash and this is caused by burnt oil varnishing them and this can be cured I believe with the wynns flush.

 

Have used slick 50 and have found no detromental effects from using it but from listining to your comments have held back on using it on my 7.

 

I only ever comment on products that I have tried and tested and have been happy with and I do need a lot of convincing.

 

 

[Simos]

FYIW I came across slick-50 some years ago after doing some studies in organic chemistry. Read the claims on the side of the tin and thought "what a load of bollocks".

 

Here we have a cabon backbone (polimerised ethene) fully substituted with fluorine (poly tetra fluro-ethene - PTFE). Super stable, super inert and super slippery

 

Now carbon-fluorine is as far as I remember the strongest bond in nature. Nothing can touch it which is why it is used for lining acid containers and other vicious chemicals, it is completely inert. That's also why it's so slippery.

 

It is also massively heat stable because the bond strength is so high - which is why it's used to line non-stick frying pans that can withstand gas rings and other incredibly hot temperatures. The energy required to break the bond is MASSIVE!

It's not however terribly strong which is why you can actually scrape the PTFE off a frying pan and should never use metal kitchen tools etc...

 

Ok, so slick 50, lets have a look. Magically they put some PTFE in solution (how), you pour it into your engine and at a pifling 80-90oC engine operating temp it binds to the metal (how) and leaves a film that can magically resist the massive operating forces in an engine (how)...

 

Ah-aaaahh, incorrect, think again !

 

What it WILL do, is add a Litre+ of totally unreactive PTFE sludge and some cheap mineral oil to your expensive fully synthetic 15/50...

 

I think not.