Stationary M25 Traveller Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Just taken the rear wheels off my 4-year old Seven. Some of the wheelnuts are rusty as hell, with great shards of flaky chrome falling off the outside of the rusty steel hex barrel. I guess it is chrome plating over mild steel, and the problem is caused by water not draining out of deep recesses in 15" alloys ? Fortunately, had 4 spares (in good nick) from fitting locking wheel nuts. Does this happen to everyone, or was Oct 2002 the time of The Bad Batch ? i.e. should I get some more from CC, or look elsewhere ? ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Edited by - stationary m25 traveller on 3 Jul 2007 08:45:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 SMT, did you notice how long your wheelstuds are? I ask because my 2002/3 SV had 32mm studs, which didn't have more than 5 threads contact with the nuts. Caterham now use 40mm studs, so I changed mine as I found it seriously worrying. With 'open' nuts, the studs now fill the nut, before you could see that 3/4 of the nut threads were not used!!!!!! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 That sounds mighty scary !! They are closed nuts, so you can't see the thread, but I will measure the studs. Is the length you mention the exposed part of the thread outside the hub flange ? ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sootysevener Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Generally the chrome is cr&p quality and the torque applied bites into to angles unless you use a full hex socket. This minute weakening on the corners allows water penetration and eventually it flakes off 🙆🏻 I'd like to get hold of some aircraft grade stainless or maybe titanium when mine need replacing again next year - it seems the chrome ones are only good for about 3 years if you regularly remove the wheels David 1989 1700XF SS clams with carbon webshots here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 Surely 5 thread contact can't be safe ?? If this is the case, do you think I can call warranty with CC - I have 3 months cover. ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 SMT, The 32mm 40mm is, I think, the whole stud length. It's a touchy subject, it's been talked about on here before, I only noticed it on my SV as I fortunately had open ended nuts so could see at a glance that all was not as it should have been. Given the age of your car, (same as mine) I'd check it, by using an open ended nut. If he nut is 'full' when it's done up, don't worry. If it's like here and here I'd have a little word with Caterham, as they DO seem to have had a rethink on the studs. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 I have a suspicion that the original Seven Lotus built did have 32mm studs, but it also had thin pressed-steel wheels....and 32mm was adequate, it just nicely filled the nuts. An alloy wheel is much thicker around the mounting holes.......just a thought! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 28 Feb 2007 21:50:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 You are right - the alloys are MUCH thicker !! The bad news is that I obviously have the shorter studs, as fitting an open nut shows it to be barely hanging on !! I feel quite sick now !! I will now compose an e.mail to CC Sales. IS it an easy DIY change to swap studs ? Do they simply bash out with the hub still fitted to the car ? Can you get a 40mm long stud in with it on the car ? So many questions ! ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 I've just changed all my studs after being picked up at last Aintree sprint by a scrutineer. In fact the shorter studs are just long enough (i think, distance engaged = 1.5 times the stud diameter - any engineers out there please confirm). IS it an easy DIY change to swap studs ? Do they simply bash out with the hub still fitted to the car ? Can you get a 40mm long stud in with it on the car ? So many questions ! Easy, but you need to remove and dismantle the hubs. You will need a 41mm socket for the rear driveshaft nut.Press out the old studs and press in the new ones. I did this in my large vice with some spacers. Edited by - Englishmaninwales on 28 Feb 2007 23:22:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardUSA Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Anyone know when CC changed over to longer studs? I have a 2004. Will check the car but IMHO seems a pretty obvious thing to not have happened on their part. I'm also a bit disappointed by the quality of the fasteners as they relate to rusting. I've got a 20 year old bmw bike and the original fasteners all look fine. Rusting hubs through a spoke wheels don't impress much either. Need to take lessons from bike manufacturers. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 This stud thing....I've heard the 1.5 times the diameter rule, but equally no engineer in his right mind (IMO) would spec studs that left an open nut with 3/4 of the thread length inside the nut free. Think of it as safety margin, and show me any car manufacturer anywhere in the world that sends cars out with studs that don't fill the nuts. If the nuts aren't done up tight, at least with 40mm studs you have fair warning before the wheel overtakes you! Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 The distance engaged is certainly not 1.5 x stud dia. I recall the nuts being stamped 12 x 1.5 (but it can't be an M12 thread ??) ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Yup, you do need to take the front hubs off, ditto the rear, and the rear you may need a scaffold pole to remove the hubnuts. Easy-peasy to knock the studs out, but you need to remove the discs from the hubs and the rear ones have special shallowhead bolts which will need an air-wrench to undo. Then you'll have heart failure and have to consult BlatChat when the rear deDion halfshafts seem to fall to bits as you try to put it all back together again. In fact, with the right tools it's quite simple, but if you have a GUARANTEE.....fill in the blanks. Sorry, CC, but it's fair comment, innit? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 rear ones have special shallowhead bolts which will need an air-wrench to undo. Once you have removed the hub from the driveshaft, mount it flat in a large vice and use a good quality narrow socket, so as to avoid damage to the head of the bolt. Use new bolts on re-fitting. when the rear deDion halfshafts seem to fall to bits as you try to put it all back together again Just be pepared to note how the bearing is fitted when you first remove it Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Riches Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Generally accepted in the aviation world that 1.5 threads extending beyond the outer face of a nut is fully engaged, so all this talk of 5 threads inside is bad news. And the crap quality "chrome" will almost certainly not be chrome, but bright zinc, a decent quality chrome is a three stage plating and will last for ages, if all correct preparation is carried out, bright zinc is a quick dip, switch in some current, and hey presto, bright shiney things. for the next few weeks. 1982. 5 speed, clamshells. B.R.G / Ali. The True Colours. Edited by - nigelriches on 1 Mar 2007 08:06:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Jesus, Nigel, this thing about 1.5 x stud diameter gets worse! I had been told that it was accepted in mech eng that there 'only needs to be 1.5 times stud diameter ENGAGED!!!' That's completely different from '1.5 threads OUTSIDE, EXPOSED, beyond the outer stud face! FFS That would obviously equate to at least 3xstud diameter engaged.....if not more. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 2 Mar 2007 13:07:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Faulds Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 God bless the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 *eek* It gets worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 Certainly untroubled by phone calls from CC this morning. ☹️ ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 nigelr, Agreed about zinc being a possible, but a lot of cowboys do put chrome direct onto mild steel, which is what makes them cowboys. I saw a "restored" F1 motorhome which had "chromed" bumpers, and the stuff was just falling off like silver dandruff, and I don't think the thing had actually been used outside....it was just sitting in a barn. It's dead porous. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* Edited by - Unclefester on 1 Mar 2007 13:57:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Best practice for blind holes is 1.5 times stud dia. For an M10 this means 15mm and a std M10 full nut is thinner than 15 mm so for an open nut the aviation standard of a thread or two beyond the filled nut is OK. In any case any more than this will not help. Any thread engagement less than that of the thickness of a full nut is idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 Well - disappointed here - close of business, and not a word from CC all day. Have just resent the e.mail, in case it didn't get through. I will refrain from any further comment until tomorrow night. ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevernontalktalk.net Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 This issue has always worried me too. All but one of the Caterhams I've owned have had the shorter studs, and wheel nuts which only engage by 4 or 5 threads just don't feel right. It will be interesting to hear the official CC line on this. I've never actually had a stripped thread or a nut fall off. Does anybody know of any such failures? And what do the regular racers do? Surely this must be a known issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 See page one - an earlier poster commented they had been caught by the scrutineers - sounds particularly painful that ! ****************** And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking... And racing around to come up behind you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unclefester Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 caught by the scrutineers - sounds particularly painful that ! Enough to bring tears to yer eyes! In fact when I raised this issue in the summer, several racers did mention they had lost wheels....I don't recall anyone saying the threads had torn out, but that the wheel had come off very quickly, which is what you'd expect. With the proper length stud, you would HEAR the thing flapping around BEFORE losing it. With 5 thread engagement, you have no chance of this warning. I've actually had this happen on a SAAB 99turbo; bad rattling noises from the front, got out for a butchers, wheel well loose. If I'd had 5 threads engaged, it would simply have come off.... I do also recall one response from someone who had stripped the threads on one of the closed ended wheelnuts when tightening....hardly surprising considering the stresses there must be on those 5 threads. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds..ooooh hooo hooo!!... 😬 😬Abbey Road Time-Machine *eek* PS. I seem to recall that OBNS had changed the studs on his car which I think has seen a bit of track use.... Edited by - Unclefester on 2 Mar 2007 13:08:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now