Davey Bee Posted March 17, 2002 Share Posted March 17, 2002 Hi guys I’m looking for a lot of advice on this one. Went out blating yesterday and lost all oil pressure on my engine, but like all these things there is a long story behind it. When I brought the car in late 2000, a Vx 2litre, I was advised by the vendor that the car did use a bit more oil when it was used constantly above 5000 rph but as the car was only 3 years old and had been modified a little I thought that was acceptable. Now you have to understand that with the best will in the world, if I have 200bhp+ between 6500 and 7250rpm, it can be too much of a temptation not venture into that part of the rev range on occasions. This is when I noticed that not only did it used more oil but also that with prolong use I would also hear the tappets (which are hydraulic). I eventually decided that I would have a local garage look at it. They fitted new bearings and rings and generally measured everything; I then gently ran it back in. I went down to Le Man but it still used what I thought was an above normal amount of oil, 2 litre in 1300 miles. I then resolved to have the engine rebuilt at the end of the year. However a few weeks later, fate took a hand in events, when fully loaded with wife and camping gear, my sump came into contact with the road. The result was a new sump, oil pump and respective seals. Still high oil use and I could still hear the tappets after a hard run. At the end of October I striped the engine and sent it to the local machine shop to be checked, both the block and the head. I then sent it all off to a known performance engine builder. At the same time I fitted a dry sump, which I was advised would help combat the problem with the noisy tappets, as well as the other benefits offered from such a system. Because I have not had a lot of experience with this new set up I took it back to the builders for start up, after I had put the assembly back into the car. I then, again carefully ran the engine in. One of the reasons I had been given for the high use of oil was maybe glazing of the bores, and this, I was told, could be due to the prolonged warm up on tick over, so I have been careful to reduce this. I have since done three trackdays, and a couple of fast road blats. I’m still getting high oil use and can still hear the tappets. This takes me to yesterday while out blating, when I lost all oil pressure. Thinking over the run it would seem that things was not right about twenty miles out. Whenever I came to a stop the engine would cut out and would take more than the usual single turn, to restart it. However without any good reason it lost most of it’s pressure, fortunately I notice it immediately and was able to stop the engine without, I hope to much damage!! So questions that I have are these: What is causing the tappet noise? Why the high use of oil? What may have caused my latest problem? Should I ask the engine builder to repair at his cost, since it has done less than a 1000mles since its last rebuild? Please no smart comments from you skinny guys with K series. I love my food, so I don’t think that K’s would work for me. Sorry this is a bit of a essay but I need good advice so I wanted to give the full picture Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted March 17, 2002 Share Posted March 17, 2002 My experience relates to a 2.0 zetec not a vauzhall, but it may be worth something. My car used to rattle the tappets after a quick thrash, I tried everything to cure it, new tappets, various new seals etc etc, but nothing fixed it. Up till this point I had been using various manufacturers fully synth oils, they all were either 0w-40 or 10w-50 oils, the stuff that people say should suit any modern engine without probs. As a last resort I thought I'd try a different grade of oil, so I tried some 5w-30 (I thought that this would be far too thin for my intended usage, ie trackdays, but as it turns out this is the grade ford recommend), and this stopped the tappet rattling completely. Now I dont know what grade of oil vx's are best run on , but I would never have thought that simply by changing grade from a 0w-40 to a 5w-30 would make such a difference, but it did. (I guess thats why ford recommend that grade, that'll teach me for ignoring what ford say.) Cant comment on any of your other problems, but hopefully the above may be of some use to you. Edited by - julians on 17 Mar 2002 19:54:06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 17, 2002 Share Posted March 17, 2002 Dave, Give me a call 01342 316166. I'll help you out. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted March 17, 2002 Share Posted March 17, 2002 Dave I'm sure Arnie will help you out with this but to quote PC "hydraulic tappets need runny oil". Good luck Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted March 17, 2002 Share Posted March 17, 2002 What exactly did the engine builder do for you this last time? The tappets are a fact of life, perhaps different oil will fix it. I doubt it. For your usage proper solid tappets are probably preferable. At least they're quiet. Perhaps your cams are unsuitable for hydraulic tappets? The oil usage can only be up the bores, down the valve guides or falling straight out the bottom. Any engine build should involve honing and new rings, so it's not up the bores. The valve guides should have been replaced if worn. Oil leaks should be fairly obvious. It's my understanding that idling to warm up is a bad idea, you should hold 2000rpm or so until warm. This is mostly to do with cam and follower stresses. 'Careful' running in can cause bore glazing. If you're going for a drive on the road, then just drive off. Vanished oil pressure will either be that there's no oil, that the pump isn't working, that the pump drive isn't working (some/most dry sumps use a belt driven pressure pump), or that the pressure relief valve has decided that 0psi is appropriate. Who was the engine builder? And what did you ask them to do? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 I've been there Davey and it's no fun............before you do any stripping etc. just try re-filling engine with some good old fashioned thick oil like gtx or similar and see what happens....you might be surprised..I was after changing every sodding oil related component without success. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 I've spoken with Dave and reccomended as follows: 1} he confirms the oil press gauge works by grounding the sender output. If this is OK goto {2) - if not investigate wiring. 2}he takes the car back to the engine builder and they remove the sump together, check big neds and mains for type and damage, take oil sample, check oil pressure realese valve is not jammed open. (although with a recent pump overhaul, this should have been cleaned thoroughly). 3) The car has been running on Valvoline synth oil, on Swindon cams which are a hydraulic profile. If the oil he has used is a 0-40 this is the likely cause of the tappet noise, as Swindon deign their cams to operate on a 5/40 min, and Mobil1 Motorsport is their rec. oil. The car also had a new D/Sump system fitted using the Catherma external scav pump and a remote tank. This appears to be working OK, but I guess there is a chance it could have caused cativation on a 0/40 oil, if the engine has been running at very high speeds on the internal pump. Personally I dont think its mapped for this kind of RPM. Lets hope for Dave, I know just how he feels. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 I know better than to disagree with VX experts on VX problems, but... A 5W40 and a 0W40 should (I use the word advisedly) have approximately the same *hot* viscosity. The 0W of the Mobil 1 0W40 should (I use the word advisedly) moke the square root of bugger all difference to noisy tappets or not. VXMMV. The symptom of the engine stalling suggests some extra drag on the crank. If this was followed by zero oil pressure, I can believe that a bearing has picked up and subsequently run. This will be something to take back to your engine builder as a dry sumped VX at only 200bhp and 7250rpm whould not run bearings. The oil loss is curious if the bores have been honed and new rings fitted. 2 litres in 1300 miles is a lot - 1.5cc per mile. I might expect to see that on a highly revving race engine on track, but for a mildly tuned VX in general use it sounds wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Russell Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 Peter I would agree with your observations but the VX XE engine just does not seem to like certain oil..and especially Mobil 1! I used Mobil 1 and could never get the tappets to stop rattling, but following a change to Comma Syner G, instant silence!! Can't understand it but it I'm not going to question it.... I think Kenny will express the very same sentiment. As for consumption, my own has a similar output of 200+ bhp and uses negligible amounts even after a sustained thrashing on a trackday or hillclimb. Something must be amiss... Andrew Edited by - andrew russell on 18 Mar 2002 14:14:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ranson Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 I don't understand how minor changes to the oil can affect the tappet sounds. This is 'road going' mass production technology. Many years ago I had a standard Vauxhall Caterham which I ran on ordinary Mobil 1 0w40 or whatever. The only times I suffered rattley tappets was when the oil level was too low. There was room for ambiguity with the Caterham modified dip stick and I noticed this problem cruising down the A41.... Subsequent hard track use with appropriate oil levels revealed no top end noises at all. However Davey has changed to a dry sump. It seems unlikely that an aerated oil problem would persist across the transition. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 Can only agree again with Andrew....Mobil 1 and VX XE's don't mix. Don't want (and am not able to) get into a chemically and technical reason why, but umpteen other VX users have found the same, strange but totally fact. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 Peter, I agree there is no logical explaination as to how the cold viscocity rating for an oil can affect its hot operation. It just does! 0W40 gives lousy hot pressure when the oil is really hot on the VX (like after 20 mins on track) SynerG is good on all VX's - I only went to Mobil 1 Motorsport because Swindon stated that it is less susceptabble to aireation at high pump speeds (thier R& D, not my opinion) Interestingly, Comma claim SynerG is the old 5W40 Mobil 1 compound of pre 1998. Paul, The oonly obeservation i would make is that the dry sump Dave has chosen is not entirely independent of the GM oil pump. If he were hitting 9000rom this would very likley cause cavitation. As he didn't (I feel very sure the engine would likely have a big hole in the side if he had)I too think cavitation/airiation are very unlikley. The engine failure is rather similar to my QED/wrong bearing failure, and it would be interesting to see if Daves engine did have a B/E failure combined with the reticular tin bearings. As far as I know the engine is limited at borderline RPM (8250) for these bearings. Swindon have knackered these bearings in a 10 minute, 8000rpm max, race simulation. Fat Arn The NOW PROVEN R500 Eaterid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted March 18, 2002 Author Share Posted March 18, 2002 Thanks Guys, I've arranged to take the car to the builders tomorrow afternoon. They are not sure what the problem may be, but they will have a look and have indicated, that even if they feel its not a direct result of what they've done, they would not leave me in the sh*t, but would meet me part way with whatever needs to be done. I feel thats as fair as you would get from any garage. I will not publish their name as I feel that would be unfair, and lets face it, the problem may not be theirs. When it is all resolved, then maybe, so that we all know, the good the bad and the..., lets hope it's good. One other thing the help you guys have given is great, that's why I love being in this club. Porsche club please take note.. Not Buzzin' but still laughing Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Edited by - davey Bee on 18 Mar 2002 21:15:48 Edited by - davey bee on 18 Mar 2002 21:18:02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted March 18, 2002 Share Posted March 18, 2002 DB, Sorry to hear about your troubles. Hope things get sorted soon. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted March 20, 2002 Author Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi Guys Looks like I made the right choice of engine builders. I will let you all know the out come next week or as soon as I know. Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted March 25, 2002 Author Share Posted March 25, 2002 Hi Guys, sorry I’ve not had time to give you all some feed back, but I’m here now. The lost of oil pressure was caused by the gears in the oil pump going into self-destruct mode. The resulting damage was: Crankshaft (will need at least a polish) Con-rods need replacing Pistons ok Oil pump ?? Head and Cams ok The reason given is that the standard pumps are not able to stand up to constant high revs. This was disappointing as the pump was replaced last September, after smashing the original, at the same time as the sump and bell housing. The builders tell me that Swindon do a steel internal upgraded one, but at mucho potatoes. They also suggest that I also upgrade the con-rods to steel, again mucho potatoes. It couldn’t have come at a worst time as these things always do, just told the wife that it’s alright for us to buy The House that Jack Built, and that we can afford to improve it, mucho potatoes. So I wont be able to go all the way and do the full 240 brake upgrade. To compound the problem I’ve just been informed by Barbara that I was too slow with my entry for Curborough, so the best I’ve got is on the reserve list. Can things get any worst? I can’t even afford the fare to Flamborough Head (a good place to jump) and if I could the train would be so late; I’d not be able to see what I was doing. However as you can see I’m not going to let this get me down…. If anyone has any serious alternatives of what I can do with my engine then I would be happy to know. Again if you are a K series owner with some smart-ass comment, Get a Life The up side to this is that as I said earlier the engine builders, John Noble Motorsport have acted in a fair way all the way through, and their work is proven to be up to the job. I’m happy to recommend them. Dave Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Dave, 8250rpm on std rods is a very very brave thing to do! Arrows should be able to supply you some rods from stock and they sell them for £620 + VAT which is competitive, (Swindon want £780 for same) plus they are the best rods you'll get. Call them on 01455 234200 Dont forget you must use grey lead irridium/indium type GM bearings on a n engine running at these speeds! (available from Swindon) What actually happened to the original rods? Have they elongated? I would definatley go for the Swindon oil pump gear - its much stronger, and sounds like you need one if you have broken 2 std ones! The part is £82.50 from Swindon. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 DB, I have a set of standard conrods which you could have FOC. I'm based in B'ham. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 The standard VX oil pump gears are sintered and often split when used at even moderately high revs. Swindon do a steel replacement for both the inner (£82)and outer (£140ish) gears. The inner gear is the less reliable of the two, but I would suggest that you change both if you plan to use much more than 8000rpm. There is also an alternative pressure relief valve available (£45) which is less likely to stick. I ran a pump to this spec for years with no probs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 Nick - are you talking about the SBD oil pressure relief valve? I couldn't get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny. Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 If it's the fibre type PRV, it caused me no end of grief.....In practice it sounded great but it just never worked. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 Ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted March 28, 2002 Author Share Posted March 28, 2002 Hi Guys, thanks again for all the help you are offering. The latest is that I will be fitting the upgraded gears to the oil pump, at least the inner one,(told that the outer is not such a problem and doesn't really need changing}. Thanks for the offer of the rods Alex, but I think I'm going for the steel ones if I can get them, QED have non in stock at the moment. I am interested to know of the problems with the PRV as I'm looking at the upgrade on that as well. I tend not to go over 7500rpm as a rule but you can't account for the odd missed gear. At some point I would love to go for the 240bhp so would like to get the bottom end right this time so that, when funds permit I can get on with it.If you guys have ant more info on what I should be doing to the bottom end please let me know. Dave Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted March 28, 2002 Share Posted March 28, 2002 Dave, QED sell Farndon rods which are much heavier than Arrows. Go for the Arrows rods for Arrows - they are the pukka Touring Car item. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Edited by - Fat Arnie on 28 Mar 2002 23:34:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted March 29, 2002 Author Share Posted March 29, 2002 Alex, you are possibly best placed to advice on this one. I'm seriously thinking of going the full hog and going for the 240bhp now. What's your opinion, having done this yourself, and in what way would you do it different if you did it again. Like I said before this is not the best time for me to do this, but at least when it's done it is out of the way. I know that it will be more expensive but are there any hidden cost that I should know about that are not obvious at the moment. I intend to keep the carbs for time being, although I have a Webber Alfa injection system lying around, I would like to use it with a DTA ECU, and that, of course would increase the cost. Arnie happy to hear from you as well, such as advice on the con-rods. In fact anyone who has a possitive contribution. Buzzin' Beeid=red> cool.gif cool.gifcool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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