New Engine Woes

[Simon_hill]

Hello

 

I've been changing to a 2nd hand 1.8 engine from a 1.4 SS. Fitted many of the bits from the 1.4 (cams, inlet manifold etc). Got the engine in yesterday and started it up (first time, which I was quite pleased with), but it was running rough (and as another issue was very tappety (seemed louder from no.2 though can't be sure)).

 

We pulled off the leads in turn and found that number 1 wasn't doing anything (no change in engine note), though there was a spark (when held against the block) and the plug was wet with fuel (smelt it).

 

We suspected something more, so I bought a compression tester today, however the engine wouldn't start at all, despite spark and fuel. I thought I'd double check the condition of the new oil and lo and behold, mayonnaise on the dipstick and filler cap. To say I'm gutted is an understatement - not just the cost, but the time and the expectation ☹️

 

Anyway, I tried the compression tester, but the instructions say the engine should be warm (difficult when the car won't run ❗) and got readings of 1) 11, 2) 12, 3) 9.5, 4) 12. Is the reading still fairly valid even if cold? (I'd expect the relationship between them is still meaningful.)

 

Anyway, to the point; is the head gasket the cause of this failure to run, or is it likely to be much more besides?

 

Many thanks in advance (and Happy Christmas)

 

Simon

 

 

 

Edited by - simon_hill on 22 Dec 2006 18:59:31

[Allen Payne]

K-series tappets can be worryingly noisy until they've refilled with oil.

 

Are you using the flywheel, ECU & injector loom from the 1400 engine - Rover changed the tooth pattern and injector wiring between the 1400's and 1800's

 

 

[Jason Plato]

which would result in 2 of the cylinders not recieving spark .

 

you would see 2 wet plugs and 2 dry plugs in the oposing cylinders.

 

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 23 Dec 2006 09:20:22

[Simon_hill]

Thanks, but yes, I kept the existing loom, flywheel and ECU - just changed the injectors and rail over. Do you mean not receiving fuel Dave?

 

It was originally running on 3 for a few minutes on and off (me turning it on and off), but wouldn't run at all the next day.

 

How long would it take to fill the tappets? I was slightly concerned that some sealant might have squidged out and blocked the oil way, though we were careful to apply it evenly and smooth it out - it 'seemed' like it was just one area - though I'm not professing to be good enough to say it was cylinder 2, RR exhaust valve , it just seemed louder in one area than the others. Anyway, I suppose that's the least of my worries.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[CageyH]

Where have you used sealant and what was it?

The biggest problem between the 1400 and the 1800 is that the loom is different.

You will need to do some rewiring to get the car to run properly.

You should be able to find some information about this in the archive.

 

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....

[Racingshoe]

Have you changed the injector loom when you swapped the rail? My 1400 injectors were set to fire sequentially, but the 1800's are set to fire in pairs. You'll need to change the loom if you're keeping the MEMs.

 

Rik Robarts - the future's bright, the future's orange here

[Englishmaninwales]

If you have kept the original ECU, flywheel/sensor and loom, and simply changed the injectors for a higher capacity, that should run perfectly. Sounds more like HGF to me. What do you know about the secondhand engine? Don 't be worried about the cam followers being noisy.

[SLR No.77]

As Malcolm says, if you've retained the ecu & flywheel, there's no need to do anything to the loom.

 

Just to clear things up, am I guessing correctly that you've bought the 1800 block/head as a sealed unit and the sealing you're talking about is the cam carrier following an SS cam swap? If this is the case there may be issues:

Is the integrity of the HG known?

If you've used your original hydraulic cam followers in a different head the oil feed holes may need to be checked for alignment?

 

Stu.

 

 

 

 

Edited by - sforshaw on 25 Dec 2006 07:48:45

[Sheds Moderator]

Stu is right, the essence of the EU2 1.4-1.8 conversion is to let the ECU believe it is still running a 1.4. You just incrrease injector size accordingly and the ECU "sees" the same flywheel and CPS arrangement so carries on regardless.

 

Racingshoe, are you sure your injectors fire in pairs? Spark plugs firing in pairs, yes, that's standard wasted spark as the EU3 engines, but injectors in pairs would fire fuel into the cylinder during the exhaust stroke as well as induction, wouldn't it?

 

I suspect your HG is duff. Did you know about the state of the engine before you bought it? Why was the car broken? HGF has to be the No.1 reason why a 1.8k goes to the breaker's yard after all.

[old captain slow]

Racing Shoe is correct. The 1800 fires injectors in pairs. IIRC one injector of a pair fires against a closed inlet valve.

 

C7 CDW

[SLR No.77]

Racing Shoe is correct. The 1800 fires injectors in pairs

Forget the 1800, this is a 1400 ecu. The injectors are wired individually and no alteration is needed. The injectors will fire in the same manner as setup for the 1400. DO NOT CHANGE THE INJECTOR WIRING IF USING THE 1400 MEMS!

 

Stu.

[old captain slow]

Yes I wasn't refering to the 1400 loom with the 1800. I meant the std 1800 EU2 set up.

 

C7 CDW

[SLR No.77]

Just trying to clarify things to help Simon before he starts butchering the injector loom

 

Stu.

[old captain slow]

😬

 

There is a point when trying to get the engine started that the angle grinder starts to get to be a really attractive option.

 

I was in the same but reversed place last year having swapped a 1400K for a 1600K with Emerald ECU, but retained the loom. It took me ages to twig that the injectors needed re-wiring for the 1600.

 

Don't change the wiring Simon.

 

C7 CDW

[SLR No.77]

Yes - I had the same problem when going from my 1400 mems driven 1800, to an Emerald. The mems has 4 injector outputs - the combining is done inside the mems - the Emerald only has 2 injector outputs therefore some minor loom mods needed!

 

Stu.

[oilyhands]

Stu,

 

The latest Emeralds cope OK with no wiring mods...

 

Oily

[Billyboy]

Has the engine been stored? condensation contamination of the oil may be giving the mayo!

 

Did you change the oil for new with new filter??? and has it produced the mayo after this Howlong did you run it on 3 cylinders?

 

 

[Simon_hill]

Hello All, thanks for all your replies *thumbup*. I've had a few days away for Christmas, so haven't been able to reply. To answer questions and update then:

 

I bought the engine as a unit from someone else who had it as a low mileage spare and believed it to be in good condition, so have not had the head off.

I swapped my cams (but not followers) and inlet manifold from the 1.4SS into the 1.8, using the same timing.

I kept the wiring loom from the 1.4 and just swapped the fuel rail with the 1.8 injectors and FPR.

I am using my original 1400 MEMS.

I used the Loctite 574 sealant (I think - the recommended stuff anyway) on the cam carrier

I put new (but cheap) oil in and put the filter on from the 1.4 as I was intending to run it for a very short while to get the crap out and then put good oil and a new filter in.

 

After I'd originally posted, the following day, I noticed no.1 injector was mis-seated so corrected that. I then started the engine and it ran (although a bit lumpily) and the tappet noise had disappeared.

When I came back after Christmas, I drained some oil out of the sump to check for water, but there was none.

It started again, but running rougher than before and wouldn't idle. Then it wouldn't start at all. The plugs were fouled up with soot and it just seemed to be very rich. I put the 1.4 (blue) injectors and FPR back in and it fired up straight away and ran fairly smoothly (as smooth as it was before). I took it for a quick run and it drove, though was hesitant at small accel pedal openings.

I checked the oil filler cap and inside the cam cover and on the dipstick again and it was clean, with no sign of emulsion. Excellent, I thought. Confidence building, I checked the expansion tank, which was lined with a thick layer of mayonnaise. Bugger!!

 

So I think it's inevitable that it's the head gasket, but I have a few other questions:

Is there a difference in pressure between the 1.4SS and std 1.8 fuel pressure regulator?

Does everyone who's done this conversion always fit the 1.8 injectors and FPR together? It seems way too rich with these fitted, but perhaps a bit lean with just the 1.4 parts fitted (hence the hesitation?)

Could the 1.4 injectors provide enough fuel if I accurately squash the FPR in a vice to increase the release pressure?

Do people still use the aluminium 1.4 inlet manifold and plenum?

Do people with the 1.4->>1.8 conversion and 1.4 ECU have any rough running problems / hesitation? I don't really want to go to the trouble of changing the head gasket to find it still won't run brillliantly and that I might as well have gone to Mr Andrews (and into my overdraft ) while it was all apart and gone for an Emerald as well to make it all worth while?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Simon_hill on 29 Dec 2006 13:22:54

[Allen Payne]

On my conversion I used the 1400 FPR and the 1800 (straw colured) injectors (the 1800 FPR is rated higher than the 1400 or 1600 ones)

 

Still using the aluminium manifold and throttle assembly and the idle is just the same as when it was a 1400.

 

If the cams aren't timed correctly then the idle will suffer.

 

Have you reset the ecu? Can you hear the idle stepper motor working when you turn the ignition on or off?

[Englishmaninwales]

Use the 1400 FPR with cream1800 injectors.

1400 SS plenum is fine with 1800.

Had no rough/rich running probs.

1400 ECU should be fine with 1400 F/W and loom. Try resetting. Still sounds like HGF to me.

 

 

[Jason Plato]

reset the cams to zero and then check.

 

 

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep