Mickrick Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Hello Peeps, I've been looking at quaifes website, Specifically the sequencial gearboxes. ooh er missus! Forgive my ignorance but, can somebody please tell me what a "Dog Change" box is? Cheers, Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 A dog box is one where the gears have protruding 'teeth'' that allow the gears to engage without the need for synchros or the need to depress the clutch. They are straight cut boxes that are mainly used for competition purposes, reason being that the gear engages with a hefty 'clunk' and it can also be quite noisy until you get the hang of engaging the gear at the right moment. I stand corrected here but technically I think gearchange should occur at the point where you match the revs on the mainshaft with the engine revs, and you should have a good ear. The disadvantages being noisy and clunky and expensive, but the speed of gearchange is something one should consider for competition purposes, also because you are avoiding slip at the clutch. Antonella 1998 Caterham Vx 1.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Ah ha! I see.....So the protruding "Teeth" are the dogs The Qaife boxes are sequential. I wonder if these would be O.K. for road use? I've always fancied a sequential box The noise shouldn't be a problem with a Seven! Thanks for the explanation Antonella Regards, Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewls Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 large amounts of back lash, very "clunky" if you're on and off the throttle, town driving for example you can change gear on the rev limiter without lifting off the throttle or using the clutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 Thanks Joseph. I don't think backlash should be a problem, with good throttle control. I don't drive (Or did't) drive my Seven in town. I head for the hills I like to short shift though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Just worth pointing out that synchro gearboxes also use dog engagement, but that racing boxes don't have synchro... The engagement on dog boxes use a pattern of just four or so dogs per gear, with "more gap than dog" ... hence the backlash issue. This is different to "straight cut", but the Quaife box is both straight cut and dog-engagement. The dogs are arranged like this so that you stand little chance of getting a "dog-to-dog" blocked gearchange. I have a Quaife sequential, so... ... the straight cut gears are noisy. The dog-engagement is no problem if you are mechanically sympathetic. The main skill to learn is that even when you are going slowly and gently, the gearchange must be abrupt for it to be smooth - this is different to normal gearboxes. Certainly with my 1:1 top gearbox, 6th is significantly quieter. When in gear, backing off the throttle results in a clunk as the lash in the dogs takes up in the opposite sense... you learn to drive smoothly. The biggest issue for town use is that the box won't let you simply change to neutral (which is sensible); you have to lift a collar to get neutral. This wouldn't be a problem except it isn't good for the twin plate sintered clutch that I use. As a top tip, you should make sure that you are running a light flywheel setup as otherwise all the engine acceleration/deceleration forces end up at the dogs. The gearbox is just so much fun to use it appears to be worth the niggles... but they'll put you in a silly class if you want to go sprinting in the club sprints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 As Peter said, the sequential boxes are not entirely road easy. To change from 5th to third means you have to go through 4th, and so on, and you cannot change from any gear withouth going through the upper/lower gear. But when changing up they are superp and bring home the fact that you feel like a real racer in terms of formula 1 style changing. 😬 Just do not get caught in 5th stationary then wanting 1st gear, this is a nightmare. ☹️ R500 Mango Madness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Quaife offer a sequential box with helical cut gears as well as the straight cut version. It's quieter, but clutchless dowchanges are not as easy, though upchanges are not affected. I've got the helical one in my car right now but I'm debating whether or not to put the straight cut back in. The noise never bothered me, you can't hear it most of the time anyway if you are pushing on a bit. Changing down through the gears in traffic is no problem, you can just go down the box gear after gear with the clutch disengaged. I hear they have designed a new box that fits within the type 9 envelope which is stronger, 5 or 6 speed, H pattern or sequential. Wonder if it will be released at Autosport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Going hardcore Mick 😳 ... good to see you're still considering a Se7en though “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 I hear they have designed a new box that fits within the type 9 envelope which is stronger, 5 or 6 speed, H pattern or sequential. Wonder if it will be released at Autosport? yes , I heard that it could well be mated up to a 300bhp 2.3 Duratec and painted up as a 50 Anniversary car you heard it here first here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 All very interesting stuff. I think I could get on O.K with one of these. The noise wouldn't be an issue, I found the dif noisey on my old car anyway, lots of backlash on that too, I soon got used to it, and it improved my throttle control. I used to ride motorcycles, and I would go up and down the box without using the clutch for fun If you're really good you can also blip the throttle on the downchange I hope Quaifes new version will stand a bit more power though, the current web site only lists boxes with a max recomended power of 275hp. It's a bit close to what I'm aiming for. I would like a bit more of a safety margin. But I'm sure they could accomodate me when the time comes. I had been considering alternative toys, but I keep coming back to the Seven It's probably going to be at least another year though, so plenty of time to do some research I really appreciate the input guys & Gals It's encouraging to know you guys using them seem happy with them The other question is, 5 or 6 speed 🤔 Cheers, Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 why do Quaife state BHP limits when a gearbox only recognises torque here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 Good point To be honest I'm more interested in torque than bhp. Especially in a road car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 Maybe because of the fact that with this type of box you can bang it into the next gear with your foot planted, the engine would be spinning at high revs producing it's hp, it would be more of a shock load, than a torque load? Did I put that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 My Quaife straight cut dog box has managed 225lbft (300+bhp) for a year of track days without failing, and 190ish lbft for a year before that. Some of the dogs were a bit worn though. I much prefer it to a sequential too, because it's more involving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelico Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Mick, What are you up to ? I thought you sold your Seven ? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernBanana Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Also, I've found that with a sequential box (sadev box in a clio), gearbox oil changes are needed more frequently, as the selector can sometimes get clogged with fine silt like matter (i.e. oil and worn gearbox 'swarf'). As Peter C has said, the change does need to be very firm to ensure engagement. Although you can go straight down the box without using the clutch, I find a slight 'dip 'n' blip' helps takes some strain off the driveline. It does give massively improved acceleration, esp if flat shifting is possible. Great fun to drive as well. As per Danny's comment, I don't think it detracts from the driving experience, but personally, it allows me to drive harder, as I'm not worried about possibly mis-shifting (as per a few hairy moments at the Ring in my SLR!) 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 Peter You know how it is when you get bitten by the bug! Edited by - Mickrick on 18 Dec 2006 13:06:35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewls Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Also, I've found that with a sequential box (sadev box in a clio), gearbox oil changes are needed more frequently, as the selector can sometimes get clogged with fine silt like matter (i.e. oil and worn gearbox 'swarf'). I've also seen some odd things with that 'box, like broken dog rings I don't mean worn down, I mean actually fractured all the way through from spline root radius. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernBanana Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 Yup, they're not the strongest of boxes, esp under full load! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers1 Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 I don't have the Quaife box but the Elite lighter version. The change is substantially lighter than the Quaife. It is straight cut and noisy when cold. Less so when warm but still far louder than Caterham 6 speed. I sprint and would not change back to the H patern due to this. But if I were just driving on the road I would have no hesitation in going back to the H. When ther is traffic about and you want to quickly go 5 - 3rd or 6th to 4th or anything similar you have to basically be "on it" all the time up and down the box. You can not see a quick opportunity to go, drop a couple or so gears and floor it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Simon , do you mean that the seqential is slower to shift down in traffic than the H pattern 🤔(6th > 4th etc) . I would have thought that 2 flicks of the lever and bam! . Are you looking to reduce engine inertia this winter with maybe a smaller clutch pack and flywheel ?. here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted December 21, 2006 Author Share Posted December 21, 2006 I would have thought no different to a bike. But it's a good point anyway. Simon, is it the IL300 box you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 I dont think the IL300 will fit in a Seven. I have an IL200 5 speed which has had a few teething probs but it seems to be pretty reliable nowadays. Elite are doing a mod to stiffen up the shift in Jan then it's going back in. The box is brilliant for track/sprint driving and is ok on the road when you get used to it but I think I'd like to go back to an H pattern and quieter box when fund allow. If anybody's interested, I'd sell it for £1500 which would get me most of the way to a Hi spec Quaiffe H-pattern dog box. It's due for a check by Elite in Jan so hopefully they will verify the box is in good working order. 1. 2.4 2. 1.687 3. 1.333 4. 1.105 5. 0.961 FD: 3.62 Drop Gear 0.96 Mph @ 7250 57 mph 80 mph 102 mph 123 mph 141 mph drops -2154 (to 5096) -1521 (to 5729) -1240 (to 6010) -945 (to 6305) Edited by - Alex Wong on 21 Dec 2006 10:04:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 [little voice in head ] "Ohhhh duranail with seqential box" must resist must resist must resist here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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