Proposed amendment to Class 4 Regs

[Mark Durrant]

On Sunday following a proposal from the floor we agreed to preclude the use of sequential gearboxes from Class 4. However, I have only just been made aware that this precludes both the Fireblade and Blackbird cars from competing in this class and with only 130BHP and 160BHP respectively they will not competitive in class 5 even after taking account their weight advantage. This goes against the principle of making the championship as attractive to as many members as possible by making as many of the current and previous model range competitive within the class structure.

 

If I had been aware of this at the time I would debated this with you and I would therefore like you to consider that we amend the regs to allow these cars to be eligible for this class with a power restriction of 160BHP to stop anyone gaining an unfair advantage by tuning a bike engine car to 190BHP.

 

The case for the Hayabusa powered cars is harder to make as they make 180BHP in 1300cc form, enjoy the advantage of a sequential box and enjoy weight saving over convential cars and therefore I propose that they remain in Class 5. I recommend that the ban on sequential boxes for non-bike engined cars should remain so that standard H pattern gearbox cars remain competitive in this class (sorry Peter C).

 

Please do not ask me to re-open the debate over ACB10's as this was debated extensively on Sunday and has been commented on extensively on the other thread.

 

Feedback and a or will suffice.

 

 

 

Mark D

Comp Sec

 

[Manxseven]

 

Caterham Fireblade here

[robmar]

hmmm - we made this class to make cars such as vvc's and r300's competitive and now we have just taken away that levelish playing field, or I am talking b 😳 😳llacks as usual

 

maybe stay in class 3 now

 

 

[david nelson]

Mark

 

I can see were this is coming from.

 

I think the BEC comunity need an input as i have no idea if a blackbird or fireblade are quicker or slower than a SLR. Did Brodie have a fireblade?

 

 

 

If on paper they are simuler than try it for 1 year and review the regs next year.

 

David

[DSL]

Would not bother me if I was going to be in that class

 

However, I would pretty confidently say that a 160hp blackbird car, well driven should walk it

[Jason Plato]

A few facts that I have found in previous years, a fireblade driven by brodie has been very close to my old 210bhp K on the same tyres and corner exit speed in a straight line upto about 100 mph( 32R's as it happens ) , Geoff Pickins Bird left me time after time on a trackday down the straights all the way up to 110- 120 mph and Roger did a 58? round curbuggar in a std blade on his very first run which is where a blad or bird will walk all over a 200 bhp K round the twisties in my opinion.

 

If we are putting a restriction on power for BC in 4 then why not limit class 5 BEC to 1400cc ?

 

 

here is C7 TOP

South Wales AO

 

 

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 22 Nov 2006 10:20:32

[neil.cavanagh]

Based on Dave Jacksons comments I'd say

 

Is it possible to pull times from last couple of years events on BEC cars against the fastest CEC in their class to give us some good stats?

[Shaun_E]

Agree with Rob - this will put off people with standard cars joining class 4. BECs enjoy an advantage that belies their power outputs - as shown by Dave's comments. There are very few fireblades and blackbirds around. The previous class structure would have likely seen these cars in class 5 anyway.

And I want to be competing in clas 5 against Martin Bushaway 😬

 

Yellow SL #32

[Graham Perry]

[Tony Abbatiello]

information supplied by Dave J on the bike engine decision would suggest that allowing bike engines is a bad idea, but I am suprised that you don't wont to allow conventional cars with sequential boxes in this class.

I have been using a sequential boxed conventional car in sprints for two years now and a H pattern box on the road track days and occasional sprints. Although the sequential is a lot of fun I am not sure it offers a great advantage over a H pattern box.

Would it be better to allow conventional cars with sequential boxes rather than bike engine cars of any power output because the performance advantage is negligable.

 

 

 

[DSL]

I would of thought that if the Blade & Birds are to be included in class 4, it would be rather unfair to disallow sequential boxes on the car engined 7's as it may help to re-address the balence slightly

[Mike Molloy]

Just to state the other side of the coin...

I am a distinctly mediocre driver, my Blackbird has (maybe) 160bhp, weighs 460+kg wet and runs on boggo CR500s.

That puts me in Class 5, which usually equates to "last in Class 5". ☹️

 

I don't think it is fair to penalise BECs just because of the excellent showings by guys like Brodie and Griff.

 

The weight saving for a Hayabusa/Blackbird isn't that much over a K. Having a skinny driver would count just as much. The sequential box maybe makes up for the fact that "bike engines have no torque" (sic).

I can't really see much to separate me from a 160bhp R300? What class is that in?

 

Maybe I should just fit the slicks and come last in class 6 instead.

[robmar]

based on DJ and my previous comments

 

Mike _ i think you missed the point it is not about driver ability but can ability that classes are based upon your blackbird has the potential to be very fast as shown by previous statements of other balckbird cars

[neil.cavanagh]

Mike,

the weight saving is massive!! that is over 140kg less then mine!! (596kg).

 

You really do have to look at what a car is POTENTIALY capable of... a 160bhp 450kg BEC car seems to be (based on DJ's examples) POTENTIALLY a lot quicker than a 190bhp 520kg (weight of most K or xflow enigned cars) seven, or 550kg SV.

[Powderpuff]

I'd have to give a to the suggested change allowing BEC back into class 4. The levelling of the playing field as Rob said for more standard 7's has to be more important than accomodating the few BEC cars that are out there.

 

Albert

[martin b]

I do think or should that be hope that BECs do punch above their weight, as i've recently purchased a Blackbird

I'll be waiting Shaun 😬

In the right hands a BEC has the capability to outgun others in Class 4 and the idea of the changes was to help others into the sport

There will always be cars handicaped for one reason or another, and there are potentially more to benefit than lose by the alterations.

 

Martin

[Mr Happy]

let them into class 4 if they are to quick after round 5 put them up a class.

 

keeps everyone HAPPY 😬 😬 😬

[Jason Plato]

you cant realy run a championship on the basis of "if your quick bump them up" it just makes a mokery of those that can drive well , set up a car well, or have knowledge of the venues. Even if the chmapionship is "only" a clubby like ours it will loose credibility on that basis.

 

2 drivers can turn up in the same car, one will win the class the other will consistently be about midfield ...... sound familier 🤔

 

Its all too complicated and the onus is on fellow competitors to protest the person who beats them.

 

 

☹️

 

here is C7 TOP

South Wales AO

[Gambo]

As there are some who feel BECs have a weight advantage , and some who feel K's have a power advantage, What about VX's? can we have our own class. We have a Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, weight disadvantage.

A special VX class for me, Paul Gibb davey Bee and Greham Ford I say ❗ 😬 Oh yes and any other VX 's out there, sorry only know about the ones above 😳

 

I'll get my coat 😬 😬

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[CageyH]

Maybe you should ballast the cars, so every car has an equivalent of a 100 Kg driver?

Means skinnier/shorter people like me don't have an unfair advantage ( I don't eat too many of DaveJ's pies!)

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....

[Silver 21]

As a 'Bird' owner I am concerned that competing in Class 5 is not really an option, a Bird gives out 170bhp max and has considerably less torque than either a K, Xflow or Duratec. If you've seen a standard Bird getting off the line you will see what I mean.

 

Like Mike if I compete is Class 5 I will be at the back of the pack so probably won't bother to come and play, the cars Dave J talks about are not 'standard' cars and are driven by very talented drivers.

 

Just my personal point of view, if this amendment does not get through then so be it *thumbdown* *thumbdown* ☹️ ☹️ ☹️

 

Any one want to buy a very cheap Bird (just needs an axle fitting 😬 😬 😬 😬)

 

Graham

 

Lotus 7 Club General Secretary

 

[Peter Carmichael]

Roger Swift's time in the Blade was 59.50 in May 2002.

 

Interesting that Mike's Blackbird would be lighter than Neil's SV even if you took out the SV's engine and gearbox. Let's be clear: If you turn up in a fat arse car, you aren't making the effort to deserve to be at the top of the class.

 

I'm sure Mark is regretting showing any tolerance for amendment for the "agreed" changes. Mark. You can't win. Lock down the changes and be done with it. It is, in the end, arbitrary how you cut the classes. Tell everybody how its going to be. Shut down debate and let's have ourselves a championship.

 

Now for a helpful contribution...

 

Regulating power outputs. Speed trap is sufficient. No need to drag people to a rolling road to verify output (which will always be contentious anyway). Let people protest cars on the basis of their speed trap readings. Uphold sensible protests. 5mph is a massive difference on most typical speed trap setups. On all except wet events this is readily enforceable. If the speed trap reading is marginal, put people on a warning. In the event of a further infraction, they forfeit all points accrued in that class. If, on receipt of a warning, a competitor gets the message they should immediately see the wisdom in moving to the next class voluntarily. Sprinting is, after all, a game. If people are not playing the game, there is no injustice in them falling foul of harsh rules.

 

The thing about speed traps is that... by the time you're going fast, you're not accelerating much. Also, by the time you're going fast, even in the process of accelerating you are going a long distance and the speed trap is a fixed distance from the previous corner. It is very very difficult (without going slowly) to get a speed trap reading that does not belie the power of your car. Even if you're 5 mph slower out of the preceding corner you can be within 1mph at the speed trap.

 

For the record, ignore any whinger going on about the 'torque' of bike engines. We all know this is so much manure. Let the speed traps tell the tale.

 

P.S. You didn't ban Nitrons. I worked out that decent dampers were the missing ingredient in my car's setup after witnessing the speed that Roger Swift and Brodie achieved in Fireblade cars in 2002. It was by changing dampers that I managed a 1.5 second improvement at Curborough between May and August. My run of second places through 2003 was also all down to the dampers that I had and others did not have. The difference, come 2005, was that everybody who was serious in class 5 had got themselves setup with decent dampers and I was relegated to my appropriate place as an under-powered also-ran. Just my 2p. The hint to all sprinters in all classes is to get yourself as much grip as possible by keeping your tyres on the ground.

 

 

[Peter Carmichael]

you cant realy run a championship on the basis of "if your quick bump them up" it just makes a mokery of those that can drive well

 

If quick refers to trap speed then I don't see a problem with this.

 

Trap speed will always be different to run time against the clock. The trap speed indicates something about a car's capability. It is in the spirit of the championship that car's of differing capability be separated by the class structure, allowing drivers to show their capability.

 

 

[CageyH]

So my Freestyle pushrod with Nitrons will help make up the difference of me lacking talent compared to other drivers or is this against the regs?

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....

[martin b]

Graham

I'm sure you would still enjoy competing, if nothing else i'm sure you'll be ahead of me in the same spec car (almost), it is entry level motorsport to appeal to as broad a spectrum of competitors as possible, unfortunately for us there are a lot more VVcs, SLRs and R300s to accomodate and the regs had to draw a line somewhere. Whilst they are difficult to get off the line they are capable of competitive times in the right hands and there lies the problem, they do have the capability of outrunning these cars, and these are the very people we are trying to encourage to try sprinting competitively.

What class would you have been more competitive in under the old rules, which I presume you are building the car with the intention of competing in 🤔 There were several cars with considerably more power in Class 4 and 5 this year.

Easy for me to say but there will i'm sure be others in the pack to gauge your times against.

I'll be there with Shaun just behind me 😬, we'll let you beat us for a small fee

 

 

Martin