Tech Forum - Review of Classes 4 & 5

[Simon.Rogers1]

Not that it makes any difference to your theme which i understand but there was at least one more at Cadwell. Me, Fiona, Paul and yourself.

 

Do we know if the key competitors competed against each other more or less often in the classes.

[Shaun_E]

Ah yes - Fiona should have been added to the list of competitors for Cadwell.

In class 5 you and Griff competed against each other at 4 events. Obviously Dave's engine woes altered the face of class 5 a bit. If Tony Abbatiello and Darren South had done a couple more events, things might have been a bit more competitive (and I wouldn't have come 3rd ☹️).

In class 4, Ken, Mark and Richard competed against each other in 5 events.

If you look at class 2 and 3 there are more regulars (the top 10 in both classes 2 and 3 all did 7 events or more) but there are still only a handful of people really in with a chance of winning (3 scored over 140 in class 2 and 4 in class 3).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that class 4 and 5 aren't that badly supported and it could easily change next year so that there are more events that the top competitors attend.

I would probably still support a merger of class 4 and 5 if ACB10s were banned but only if they were banned for class 3 as well.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Shaun_E]

In class 2, the top 3 competed directly against each other in only 4 events but 11 events had at least 2 of the top 3 competing. I'm probably doing Mike Sankey a disservice here as he was pretty close to the top 3 in which case 11 events had 3 of the top 4 competing.

In class 3, 12 events had 3 of the top 4 competing.

Am I defeating my own argument here? 😬

Oh well, it's Friday afternoon and I'd rather be at home so debating with myself seems a reasonable way to spend it.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Peter Carmichael]

The growth in the number of events means that to make a serious attempt on the championship you have to attend the majority of events. I'm never going to do that, because... well because other things get in the way.

 

I'm going to give one last pitch for keeping the status quo, because I've run my car on ACB10s for all nine of its years and I'm not about to change now.

 

I personally think that the standard of driving at the top of the classes is spectacularly good. It is this that makes it difficult for less experienced members to get their hands on trophies.

 

Here is a radical suggestion... A champion's league.

 

The consistent top three (?) performers in classes 2-5 compete for separate honours from the rest of the field. There are first second and third trophies in the main class, that these top performers are not eligible to win. There are bonus points for beating a 'champion'. There would have to be promotion and relegation rules for the 'champions'.

 

This would have multiple advantages. The Champions would no longer spend their weeks between events polishing excessive quantities of silverware - the trophies would be shared around. The Champions would still be gaining benefit for the championship as long as they deserved it. A champion on a bad day would be fair game to any up and coming talent, leading to lots of performance-related angst and loads of banter in the paddock.

[Richard Anderson]

My two-penneth as a class 4 competitor :-

 

I am in favour of merging class 4 & 5 using 1b radials, becuase, it would increase the competition and mean less chance of having events where there were too few competitors in your class to make things interesting.

 

My only concern is for people with R300 type cars with substantially less than 200bhp, as putting them in this merged class would b rather unfair. Maybe class 4 could b kept and an upper limit put on the horsepower (190bhp?)

 

Rich.

[david nelson]

Shaun

 

why stop class 3 from using acb 10's?

 

 

David

[Simon.Rogers1]

Hi Peter

 

If we take on board your suggestion can I have Sir Alex or Jose as my Manager 😬

 

Richard - as I said b4 surely the harder rubber will even the power thing out - not completely but substantially. I certainly can not just floor it on ACB's let alone 048's.

 

Traction will rule not power.

 

Reverting the class back toward a handling/driving skill bias.

 

Of course 1b radials do like going sideways much more. I may have to take my old pseudonym back due to this 😬

[Simon.Rogers1]

Cos we don't want 3 to be faster than 5

[Mr Happy]

I thought class 3 was as quick as class 5 already 😬 😬 😬 *wink*

 

 

Tm

[sjmmarsh]

I only attended one event this year in class 4, which turned out to be the highest attendance for the class with 9 entrants. I had intended to come along to MIRA, but work got in the way.

 

Why didn't I go to more? Several reasons:

 

1) I couldn't commit at the start of the year to all of the events, so I only put down my 'bankers'. I didn't realise at the time that this meant I wouldn't get invites subsequently to the others (I know it saves cost, but it is a case of out of sight out of mind).

2) Many of the events are too far away from me (Stamford) to be able to drive to and from the Sprint in a day (I can't afford to spend a whole weekend).

3) With a 150bhp bog-standard SV I am not competitive against most of the rest of the class, so there isn't the same challenge and with low entries there isn't anyone you can benchmark yourself against.

4) I also entered the Curborough championship as it met criteria 1 & 2 above.

 

Maybe next year...

 

Steve

[Shaun_E]

David - as Simon says, it would seem daft if the class 3 cars were quicker than class 5. Nothing against class 3, just think that it would be a more consistent approach.

 

Yellow SL #32

[Silver 21]

As a potential Class 4/5 Competitor in 2007 I'm in favour of merging the classes and running radials as a control tyre.

 

I think Simon makes a valid point and we have seen it many times in the past, its not the power its how you manage to get it to the track and in essense how good a driver you are.

 

I think merging 4 & 5 wil still make the class competitive and to a certain extent even out the power differences.

 

I can't make the forum next weekend but if a vote is taken on this I would vote yes to merge the classes so someone can put 2 hands up, one of them for me 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬

 

Graham

 

Lotus 7 Club General Secretary

 

[Simon.Rogers1]

I'll use my other arm then Graham

 

I'll take other offers also but may find it difficult to vote for more than 3 people

[KenEvans]

I'm in favour of merging classes 4 and 5 to increase competition - however I think it should be a list 1A class 😳 .

 

1) This would bring it in line with the MSA roadgoing class (apart from the lack of engine capacity limit) and potentially attract others from the many other championships already competing in that class.

 

2) We would be able to compare our times and records with those already set by equivalent cars on list 1A tyres (as I could at Harewood recently) to see if we are as quick as we think we are. On list 1B you have no benchmark external to the championship.

 

3) The cost to current class 5 competitors of going to 15" wheels will be partially offset by the lower cost of tyres and will be less than current class 4 competitors having to buy 13" wheels (magnesium?) and more expensive tyres.

 

4) It provides greater entertainment for spectators and requires greater driver skill in getting the power down.

 

5) Griffs class 4 records need breaking.

 

6) It's great fun!

 

There are Westfields with 2.0Vx 260BHP engines competing on list 1A tyres with little drama and some of these Westie lads wear their wellies for driving. .

 

This won't be a popular suggestion amongst those used to sticky ACB 10s so I await the flaming 😳 😬

 

Ken

[KenEvans]

On the other hand - contradicting myself - we could leave class 4 and 5 as they are and focus efforts on attracting more competitors to those two classes from external championships.

 

For example, I can think of three or four potential class 4 drivers from the Midland Hillclimb Championship who might do seven rounds attracted by the single day format and more opportunity to drive Shelsley and Loton.

 

Ken

[Simon.Rogers1]

Ken its a fair suggestion as you are correct regarding the costs to swap. But how many Class 4 guys already have 13" wheels for "normal" driving and trackdays.

 

If people voted this way i would accept it naturally and wish everyone well on their sidways runs 😬

 

`however I think I would then run in class 6. I may be a way off the Bussa' boys but not so much as to feel left out. Darren was about 2.5 secs quicker at Harewood on his sticky slicks so won't be to far away. I'm also sure I could then compete with the likes of Mark Smith's supa westi. (I know he is going single seater).

[DSL]

As a sometime class 5 competitor , I would be happy with the banning of ACB's & addoption of 1a's for next year, if the following division could be engineered into class 6.

 

Those that would rather enjoy a decent amount of grip, should at least have somewhere to go, allied with a chance to be competitive & collect some silver ware *thumbup*

 

Realisticaly for this to work fairly the bike engined cars should be in a separate catagory within class 6,(maybe A & B ) As with the best will in the world I can't see the car engined slick shod car's getting much of a sniff of the Busa boys *thumbup*

 

(Simon it was 3 seconds difference by the way 😬 😬)

 

Just a thought 🤔

 

 

[Jason Plato]

class 7 for BEC

 

sounds good to me

 

 

 

here is C7 TOP

South Wales AO

[Silver 21]

Sorry but if Road Going BEC's are going into a seperate class count me out for next year, they are allowed to compete with other road going cars in other championships so why should they be moved in ours *thumbdown*

 

Graham

 

Lotus 7 Club General Secretary

 

[Simon.Rogers1]

I enjoy the crack of getting close. I wasn't that far away from Griff - and I can do better.

 

I can.

I can.

I can.

I must.

 

I can......

[sjmmarsh]

Control Tyres would be a big turn-off for me. I am just using normal road tyres (ZZ3s that came with the car on 16") and don't really want a sprint-only car as I do a reasonable number of road miles.

 

Isn't there a compromise where the front runners use control tyres but beginners have more leeway in the first few years of sprinting (or the first 10 sprints)? (I was only a novice for my first two sprints, so was hardly "experienced" once I ceased being a novice). They aren't going to be at the front of the pack and these are exactly the people you need to encourage if you want to grow the size of the entries.

 

You need to encourage people to take part in sprinting and give them time to 'get it'. Once they do they will be back.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

Edited by - sjmmarsh on 11 Nov 2006 22:09:24

[DSL]

I was only refering to class 6 BEC's 😳 😳

 

Still like the idea of a split class 6 though

 

 

Edited by - DSL on 11 Nov 2006 22:35:12

[Simon.Rogers1]

I may not have been clear enough.

 

It is unlikely we will spec a control tyre.

 

We may however outlaw crossplies for exactly those reasons - encouraging others to join.

[CageyH]

As someone who has not entered the sprints before (the kind of person you want to attract), my comments would be that the class breakdown/tyre regs would need to suit someone like me, who will drive to the event with a fairly standard car on radials. If I have to run a VHPD with people who have 230+ BHP, I am potentially giving away a 50 BHP advantage.

That takes some driver skill to make up. I think the Class 4 cars should be limited to about 200BHP, on tyres such as A048, and class 5 for the higher output cars. I would be more tempted to take part if the playing field was a little more level.

Either that, or you would need a handicap system of all up weight against power, which would be complex to run!

 

If class 4 is not the right class, I apologise, as I have no idea of the class breakdown 😳

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....

[martin b]

As a relative novice perhaps I am looking from another perspective, I think part of the reason Class 4 & 5 are undersubscibed compared to 2 & 3 is the fact that they newcomers may have lightly modified engines and will end up miles off the pace, it is a big jump from 140 bhp to the top runners.

I agree that those who compete at the top of the tree have every right to want more close competition and I broadly agree with the idea of merging the classes running a radial tyre from next season, those in class 4 probably have some 13" wheels anyway and the rest in class 5 run a new set of ACB10s each season I think so I can't see the point in delaying the change, sorry if I am generalising too much here. Radial tyres will also broaden the number of entrants with competitive tyres. Perhaps this should also spread through to class 3 at the same time, or with a years grace, whilst competion is tight you should not be seen to be complacent regarding numbers willing to compete with ACB10s.

Please don't forget that to gain more competition you need to look outside to encourage more people to run in these classes. I think some are put off with the big jump in power and will feel inadequate *eek*but at the moment there are not sufficient numbers to split these classes another way, and it would be very hard to police.

Perhaps more use should be made of low flying to advertise and review the championship, perhaps bringing out the characters and how each class is faring and encourage others to spectate, the best way to gain more entrants would be to broaden the appeal

If I remember correctly it was not too long ago that Class 5 had significantly more entrants so perhaps it is all swings and roundabouts and more entrants will appear anyway.

 

Martin

 

Edited by - Martin B on 11 Nov 2006 23:47:47