Julian Thompson Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 If a second hand K series engine is sourced, is it possible to remove ALL wear from the engine by rebuilding, or are there any wear points on the block and head that absolutely cannot be refreshed? The reason for this is that a used K can be bought cheaply and then given to an engine builder who can put spangly bits in it to give big power for less than buying a new basic motor and then throwing 1/2 of it away. If wear is accumulated on any points on the head/block then this means you'd have to look for the lowest mileage possible in the first place and might explain why people go for new engines..... 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Obviously the bearings and liners can be replaced quite cheaply. After that it will start to cost more (pistons, rods, crank etc). It just depends how extreme you want to go. The price of used K's is so low that I can imagine you will find either a new unit or something with such low mileage that I'd be tempted to leave it alone. The only problems with old K series that I've heard of is cracking exhaust ports. I've had two friends who have had this problem. Otherwise head durability is okay. Not heard of serious problems with the block or bottom end. Basically, just buy the newest unit you can find. It is possible to get new engines for less than £1000. BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Cracking exhaust ports, haven`t heard of this problem could you elaborate Bob please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 Mmmmm... I've seen about 250 K series heads in one shape or another and have yet to see a cracked exhaust port, some of the early low port castings suffered a little with porosity.. mainly due to poor material and maintenance. The main areas of the head which could cause some concern would be softening due to the all too common overheating, scuffing of the tappet bores and cam bearings and distortion. To an extent the cam bearing wear can be compensated for by linishing the carrier and re-lapping the bearings, but distortion and tappet bore wear would be more problematic. Other than that the guides, valves and cams are all replaceable. Use of the wrong anti-freeze can also cause corrosion problems on the block surface which could possibly be rectified by linishing the surface. Incorrect liner height can cause hammering of the liner into the head surface and the liner ledge in the block, if this occurs then the block would be scrap and the head would need major skimming. Pretty much everything else can be replaced, unless you are unlucky enough to have seriously run the main bearings and damaged the ladder/block housings. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 I saw two 80K miles 1.4 heads circa 93 vintage. Exhaust port cracked through to the coolant jacket. Steam coming out of exhaust, needed topping up daily with coolant. Both out of std 1.4 rover 200's, didn't bother investigating further as they weren't "work" related. Julian, all these problems really relate to high mileage or highly stressed modified engines (usually). A low mileage std engine really shouldn't have these problems. Dont let it put you off. BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 3, 2002 Author Share Posted February 3, 2002 Guys, where would one obtain a "new K series for 1000GBP" ? Oily- are we basically saying that other than physical problems caused by abuse, any used K can be totally rebuilt to new standard, and therefore mileage isn't an issue? 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 I'd say check what you are buying carefully, despite what Bob says, not all the problems outlined occur on only high mileage or abused engines, the main source of heads / engines that go through my garage are recent mostly very low mileage engines which have exhibited the faults I have listed. Some are repairable others are not. *If you check what you buy carefully* you should be able to pick up a good 1.8 or 1.6K with a reasonable miles on for £400-500, if you are using it as a basis for a seriously upgraded engine it makes a lot of sense since a lot of the components which may exhibit wear will be replaced during the course of the upgrade. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 3, 2002 Author Share Posted February 3, 2002 Great! This is what I'll do then. Ideally I'd like the VVC motor for the cylinder head but every scrapyard I ring has "just sold the last one, mate". Any ideas? Is it not cost effective to just buy a new block and VHPD head? 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Reaper Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 Julian,I have tried to email you some useful info but your address seems not to be acceptable. Dave. Doh,sorry,it's me,I'm adding an E where there shouldn't be one! Edited by - Grim Reaper on 3 Feb 2002 22:02:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 Ho ho, VHPD head, cost effective.. A VHPD casting will set you back £1300+.. thats just the bare casting.. unless you are lucky enough to find one going cheap save yourself a kings ransom and buy a VVC head, if you are junking the VVC mech. than there are plenty of secondhand heads around with failed mechanisms at about £300-400, that's complete (I've got 13 of these here at the moemnt.. all spoken for I'm afraid). A simple conversion kit (£80) and the use of a larger journaled inlet cam (£50 higher cost than a regular cam) will see the head converted to solid cams. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 3 Feb 2002 23:13:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 4, 2002 Author Share Posted February 4, 2002 I see your point Oily but remember that a basic 1.6 SL from Caterham has 5 grand factored in for the engine !!!!! A VHPD head at 1300 don't seem too bad based on this but still, the VVC seems the way to go - I reckon for say, six grand or so I can have a nice engine doing it this way. Would you order the 421 exhaust or the 4 into 1 exhaust or none at all and get one made? 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I'd have one made.. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 As I am involved in development and testing of new engines for OEMs I am simply stating that of the programmes I have seen I have not seen many of the problems that Oily mentions. This will be because the engines I test are carefully (usually hand) built and correctly rigged on the test facilities and then closely monitored. I guess a lot of the engines oily sees have been removed from there original homes because they have been damaged for one reson or another (oil starvation, dirt in build, crashed). This is simply my opinion and are not meant to be gosple. PTP have a limited no of VHPD heads complete (no cams) going for £800+vat each. Get them while you can. They will also knock £100 off their DHTBs if you ask nicely. Bob Edited by - bob corb on 4 Feb 2002 08:18:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Most of the engines and heads that I see come my way because of two main types of failure. The first is the quite astonishingly high failure rate of the VVC mechanisms in service, (modes of failure include the hydraulic control mech., VVC mechanism failures, drive pulleys loosening etc.) and the equally disturbingly high incidence of head gasket failure. Both of these must be extremely embarrassing for Rover. The other faults I have observed are alarmingly common and although not contributory to the main cause of failure they are nonetheless significant. These are indicative of the type of faults a prospective buyer might find when looking at secondhand K series engines. They probably wont have the opportunity to choose a hand picked/ individually assembled engine. Quite often these secondary faults (block erosion , liner hammering etc.) are contingent failures waiting to happen but are largely ignored when the main fault is corrected by the main service agent. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 4, 2002 Author Share Posted February 4, 2002 I've got two options here: The guy Bob told me to try has a 30000 (apparantly) mile VVC at 750 notes, OR I could get one of the above VHPD heads from PTP and stick it on any old 1.8 or 1.6 motor (I'm going all steel + full rebuild so no probs there) But.... How can I check the condition of a motor like this at a scrapyard before I hand over an inch of dollar? Anything obvious from the outside?????? - can't see it! 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 4, 2002 Author Share Posted February 4, 2002 Also, Oily, who is best for making my exhaust and do I get them to make everything including the manifold and what do I do about SVA? - can they do it so I can pop a cat in for this? How many beer tokens will it cost approx? 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Powerspeed, EBD or a host of others can make a decent manifold to fit your requirements, street price around £300-350 in stainless, both could do you a box with Cat. Buyin any secondhand engine is a leap of faith, if you cant inspect it internally, then try to agree terms with the supplier, chances are he wont be interested in taking it back in pieces though. £750 is reasonable if it is in running order. I'd take a chance and buy the VVC, the worst thast could happen is that the block could have suffered with hammering liners. Another block could be had for £100 or so if necessary, alternatively if you are throwing away the internals, buy yourself any damp linered short engine 1.4/1.6 or 1.8 and a VVC head, you could probably pick that combination up for around £450-500. I may have a 1.8 block available shortly. Peter C's engine started as a 1.4 short engine bought for £100 and a VVC head bought at similar money. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 4 Feb 2002 22:55:06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted February 5, 2002 Author Share Posted February 5, 2002 Great advice. Thanks for your time. I'd hate to think I'd blown 750 on a crap motor so maybe I'll consider a new head then s/h block at a cheap price as you suggest. I'm going to see about these VHPD heads for 800 from PTP today - doesn't sound too bad a price and no porosity worries etc... If VVC man 'll take 650 complete I think I'd get that. 8JU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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