robmar Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 was it just a case of mistaken rules being applied 🤔 not having the blue book to hand what are the official requirements for sear belts for our level of competition 🤔 rob My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Rob My understanding is that the use of a race harness is recommended not manadatory but I will be checking this with Brian Lyall Mark D Comp Sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted May 2, 2006 Support Team Share Posted May 2, 2006 Rob - I have re-read the blue book and am far from convinced that the scrutineer was right. My interpretation is that for sprinting, as long as you have a minimum of a 3 point belt you are OK. Anything else is just a recommendation. The scrutineer wasn't 100% sure but his opinion was that, over the next few years, we will get to the point where for any motorsport, FIA homologated belts will be required. Having gone through the hassle on Sunday and given that my drivers harness is not in the best condition, I am going to replace it with an FIA homologated one (see my Techtalk post here). At least that way it won't come up again. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Mark - ok assume you or Bryan will post something 'official' Shaun - I gues sthat would be interesting for those that turn up in road going tin tops, personally i think it is a good idea My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I spoke to the Scrute' and he did have the drivers best interests at heart . He was mildly concerned that the std and sometimes rather tired looking caterham buckle clip harness' were not realy good enough. He raised the question "did the harness need to be fia approved for a clubmans event ?". Having seen a few of these harnesses I would agree that from a safety point of view they could be improved. But quite what is the exact wording is in the blue book for the requirement at a clubmans event I dont know. There were also a few heads above roll bars on Sunday........ He took the view that untill he had all the facts he wouldnt enforce and stop play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 no very sensible Dave on all counts by the scrutineer hvaving seen mine say 'expire after 2006' I am likely to change them over the winter now, even though they look ok... rob My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I was talking to one of the Welsh counties boys, who is an MSA scrutineer last night. It runs along the lines of, if you are in a road car, you can use any seatbelt i.e 3 point inertia. BUT if you fit a race harness, it MUSt be up to MSA standard, which currently is 3" straps not 2". The scrutineers have been told to look out for these things this year. As it stands for sprinting it's a grey area, which will be tightened up for next year. as an example, my belts on driver side expier 2007 so next year I'll need new ones as the are FIA belts so they have to be up to date.My passenger belts expierd in1997 so can not use them this year . I can assure you there was a 'interesting' conversation between me, Niel(scrutineer) and other welsh county competitors. It seems this year we should get away with it. Next year if you uses harnesses, they will have to be up to standard. Hope this helps. RED 2.0 HPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted May 2, 2006 Area Representative Share Posted May 2, 2006 Whilst I believe the scruitineers had our best interest in mind, I think a few folks may fear that they won't be allowed to compete without replacing existing harnesses. From the below, I don't think that's true. Extracts from the blue book (downloadable from the "Member Publications" section of the msa site, once logged in) L10.1.2. Seating and Seat Belts – Except for cars of periods A – E (Section P). (a) Roadgoing Production and Roadgoing Specialist Cars Front seats may be replaced by fully trimmed competition versions in the interests of safety. (b) Roadgoing Production and Roadgoing Specialist Production must comply with Q 2.1.1. © Modified Production Cars must comply with Q 2.1.2. And Q2. SEATS, SEAT BELTS AND HEADRESTS 2.1. All seat safety belts must be must be complete units sourced from a recognised manufacturer and fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, MSA recommendations or FIA requirements. (See FIA Drawing Nos. 25342, 253–43, 253–44 and 253–45) Seat belts, in the following specified configurations, must be worn and be correctly adjusted at all times during events: 2.1.1. Three point. One diagonal shoulder strap and one lap strap, with three anchorage points on the chassis/body shell or roll over bar of the vehicle on either side and to the rear of the driver’s seat. 2.1.2. Four point. Two shoulder straps and one lap strap, with four anchorage points on the chassis/body shell or roll over bar of the vehicle. One either side of the driver and two to the rear of the driver’s seat (or one symmetrical for the two shoulder straps). 2.1.3. Six point. Two shoulder straps, one lap strap and two straps between the legs, with six anchorage points on the chassis/body shell or roll over bar of the vehicle. One either side of the driver, two to the rear of the driver’s seat (or one symmetrical for the two shoulder straps) and two between the legs. 2.1.4. Where safety harnesses are mandatory it is recommended that those described in 2.1.2. and 2.1.3. are homologated by the FIA and carry their label. 2.1.5. It is permitted to make a hole in series production seats to allow secure anchoring of seat belts. 2.1.6. All seat belts used on International events must be homologated by the FIA, and carry their label. Note that 2.1.4 reads:- 2.1.4. Where safety harnesses are mandatory it is recommended that those described in 2.1.2. and 2.1.3. are homologated by the FIA and carry their label. Edited by - Richard Price on 2 May 2006 12:45:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted May 2, 2006 Support Team Share Posted May 2, 2006 And just for information I have ordered a new harness from Caterham. They are now supplied with 3" shoulder belts and 2" lap belts. I asked them to check that they are FIA homologated and they are - there is an FIA label on every strap. It should arrive in the next couple of days so I'll post once I've double checked. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 make sure they are not homologated till then end of 2005 😬 My MSN Space and Blog - Syndicate Using RSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl0498 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Guys, I hope you all had a great Longcross and Llandow. Richard has set out above the relevant paragraphs of the 2006 Blue Book - which have not changed since 2005. Why we may be seeing an issue is on the definition as to whether our cars fall into 'Roadgoing Production/Roadgoing Specialist Production rather than Modified Production. The definition for the former (see L.11) includes things like List 1A tyres which for our Classes 3, 5 and 6 does not apply and hence a scrutineer - who will not know our Classes, just the standard MSA ones, may assume the car falls into the Modified Production category - for which the seat belt and other requirements in L are different. I have not seen this issue before at L7CGB events but if any competitors in Classes 3 and 5 do then we simply need to indicate to the scrutineer that the class into which the car falls is a roadgoing class - and if necessary have a formal copy of the Championship regulations to hand. For Class 6 - where carsdo not need to be roadgoing we have a problem in that these cars would correctly be judged to be Modified Production (L.12) and hence they should comply with the extra safety requirements that entails - which means mandatory harnesses. The non safety requirements in L.12 I believe we can ignore because they are covered by our own technical regulations. So in simple terms harnesses are not required for Classes 1-5 inclusive - but our competitors should assume that they are for Class 6 - for which a 4 point harness is a minimum requirement. In practise I would strongly recommend that ALL of our competitors have at least 4 point harnesses. The main benefit with harnesses as well as the obvious one is increased confidence and the ability to focus on driving the car and not worry about being thrown around the car whilst trying to control it. The downside is when I have my harness fully tight I can't even touch the handbrake! I also think this is an area that will be tightened up over the next year or two - all the safety areas are gradually getting tougher. So I would encorage everyone not to do the bare minimum on any of the safety side. As for FIA homologated harnesses etc - the Blue Book is clear as Richard has stated - it is a recommendation where harnesses are mandatory. The category of event has no relevance on any of the above. Our own events are at the Clubmans level - but the events to which we are invited (Longcross etc) are at Nat B level. Not to be confused with licenses! I am concerned to hear of drivers having their helmeted heads above the roll bars/cages. The Blue Book states (Q.1.5.4) that there should be at least 50mm between the top of the helmeted head and the top of the roll bar. Even if scrutineers think that our cars are classified as Roadgoing Production/Roadgoing Specialist Production (except for Class 6) where rollbars are optional in the standard MSA classes because we state in our Championshiop Regulations and Sprint Regulations that rollbars are mandatory then the 50mm rule should apply. As a Clerk of the Course I automatically refer any driver whose helmet is above a fitted rollbar to the scrutineers to talk to them - Roadgoing or otherwise. I know of other Clerks who do the same. As someone who has seen a Caterham roll over at a sprint event at speed - all of our competitors must take this seriously. Both of the above issues I will take on board for the 2007 Championship regs - with the suggestion that if the MSA have not clarified the Blue Book we will need to clarify our regs. I will be talking to our eligibility scrutineer later this week on a few issues. I will let you know if he has any other thoughts on the above. Hope this helps. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Brian Many thanks for the clarification Mark D Comp Sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Kipper Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Just a point about helmets/rollbars/rollcages. I was at Silverstone two weeks ago watching the Grads races from the inside of Becketts and was only yards away from the point that a Caterham in the Supergrads race rolled. It not so much rolled as flipped, landing squarely upside down on the rollcage and then rolled again back on to four wheels. This is the first Caterham I have ever seen roll and the result of having your head above the rollcage in these circumstances doesn't bear thinking about It is a testimony to the strength of the car that it was back on the track at Snetterton a week later Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Procter Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 I didn't know you were there Kipper, you should have dropped by the camper van for a cup of tea. I saw Kipper jnr on the Friday but he wasn't sure he would be able to make raceday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Kipper Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Andrew We came round the paddock at lunch time and bumped into a few people but most had there heads in the food trough. I don't know what it was like from your point of view but from the outside looking in the racing is still very scary - especially the mob in the Supers 😬 Congratulations for the win at Snetterton - especially after your events in the first race 😬 Kipper Fun is not a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Procter Posted May 4, 2006 Share Posted May 4, 2006 Thanks. I'll see if I can get the video of the wheel coming off and consequent 720 degree spin online somehow. I think that Supers race was exceptional for its level of mania - Snetterton was much more civilised Edited by - coyoteracer11 on 4 May 2006 11:25:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted May 5, 2006 Support Team Share Posted May 5, 2006 My new Caterham sourced harness arrived yesterday and it is FIA homologated, there is a label on each strap and the valid until is 2011, i.e. 5 years. The shoulder straps are 3" and the waist straps are 2" with 3" pads. Shame they didn't send me the right bits to fit it ☹️. Yellow SL #32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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