Starter problem NOT fixed by relay

[charlie_pank]

First some background...

Everything fine til a very hot day when I returned from LeMans, had just spent about 3hrs at 90 on the payage then stopped for 5 mins. Got the famous clicking starter motor problem... blew the ECU fuse... ran rough ever since until I fitted an emerald...

Stopped having the starter motor problem when I did the well documented relay fix (ie fit a new one outside the MFU).

 

BUT had the same problem again today . (only about 4 months after fitting the new relay). So, does anyone know what actually causes the problem and how I can fix the root of it rather than patching over the symptoms? ISTR someone suggesting it was some of the components in the motor expanding and sticking - the extra oomph from the new relay overcomes this. Does anyone know if this is right, and if so has anyone fitted a heat shield etc....?

 

 

Thanks to all who reply

 

 

 

C

 

Charlie'n'Kermit

The plan is: There is no plan

S5EVN

[F355GTS]

Charlie

 

there's some stuff in the 7Faq area, I thought Peter C had added my findings but couldn't find it so i've repeated it below

 

First it depends on the make of starter, I've repaired four now, three of the later? geared type that have the solenoid at the bottom. Whilst both appear to suffer from the same problem, that of failed solder joints on any one or more of the three connectors although it appears to be more common for the smaller connector to fail.

 

Magnetti Marelli (soleniod on top). This had two problems, one the solder joint had failed on the small connector and the wire inside the solenoid to this connector was broken.

 

 

Assuming there is no break internally (fairly safe to assume this as it's unusual for this to break) re-solder the two terminals. If this doesn't resolve the problem try the following

 

 

To repair, undo and remove the wire between starter and solenoid, remove the 2 8mm bolts and remove the solenoid from the starter (unhook the piston part from the lever). Clean the piston and bore, there shouldn't be any grease on either

 

Undo the two philips screws in the back of the solenoid, De-solder the two connectors and lift the black plastic part away hopefully leaving the two wires in place (only one in the case of the one I repaired!). Inside the black plastic part clean the two copper connectors with sandpaper of file and on the solenoid the corresponding contacts. If either of the wires that pass through the plastic cover have broken, solder a new piece of wire in place (I used the earth core from 2.5mm Twin and Earth) I left this much longer and then wrapped around the connector on the outside before soldering (this ensures that if the same solder joint fails it will still work as there are multiple contact points)

 

Replace the black cover ensuring the large contacts are in line and re-solder the two solder connectors. refit the solenoid in reverse order of the above

 

 

 

 

Later Geared Type

 

Unfortunately the solenoid cannot be fully dismantled however re-soldering the contacts and cleaning the piston/ bore appears to cure the problem. On mine because the spade tab (some have a round connector) had actually failed I drilled a 1mm hole through the solder and screwed a new connector on and then soldered it. I found a further problem on Dave Daniels's inside the starter.

 

First disconnect the battery (tip here always undo the earth first then you won't short the battery with the spanner when undoing the live)

 

Undo the top 13mm nut on the back of the starter and remove the large cable

 

Undo the spade or small round connector

 

Undo the 2 bolts and one nut (17mm a bugger to get at by all accounts although mine was fine) and remove the starter from the car

 

On the back of the solenoid (smaller round thing!) undo the 13mm nut holding the connector that goes to the Starter body (The large round thing)

 

Undo the two small Allen bolts holding the solenoid to the Starter body, you will find it is slightly sprung) and bend the connector away, lift the Solenoid slightly allowing the pin to lift over the fork (note the position of the second spring with domed end piece) (Don't panic when the piston stays behind or falls on the floor!)

 

Undo the remaining 13mm nut on the large connector that has a solder tag to one side.

 

Using a wire brush thoroughly clean the two threads.

 

Using a Soldering Iron, remake the solder connection on the large and small connector.

 

Remove the piston and spring from the bore. Clean both thoroughly removing all grease, if there is any sign of corrosion us wire wool or a very fine wet and dry to clean. Lastly add a very thin film (hardly any) of clean grease to the Solenoid piston

 

reassemble in reverse order.. but before you do!

 

Starter Motor Bit!

 

Remove the rubber grommet/ seal (the one that fitted between the Solenoid and the Starter body)

 

Undo the two 8mm Nuts

 

Gently withdraw the starter body such that the split occurs near the front of the starter not the rear. Carefully inspect the small copper brades between the connectors and brushes, re-solder if required. On the round shiny bit (the thing the brushes run on) use a small knife or screwdriver to gently scrape out any dust etc in the grooves

 

Reassemble in reverse order

 

Having reassembled the Starter motor part thoroughly clean the connector that goes to the Solenoid

 

Reattach the Solenoid remembering to refit the seal/grommet (and the large connector with the solder is the one that connects to the starter body)

 

Refit to car

 

 

 

Mark

[charlie_pank]

Thanks a lot Mark, I'll have a go, probably not for a week or so though...

 

Charlie'n'Kermit

The plan is: There is no plan

S5EVN

[charlie_pank]

I finally got the time to do this today and the instructions were excellent. I found the most difficult bit was getting the starter out from between the primaries and the engine block.

 

Once I got the thing apart I found that the solenoid piston had a mark all the way around it about half way down and quite a lot of other grubby marks too (is this normal?). There was one vertical line of slight corrosion down the length of it too. Cleaned it all up with wet and dry and put it back together and it works a treat. But then it did before most of the time! It's one of those problems that you will never be sure you fixed, the only confirmation you can have is of failure - ie it won't start again!

 

 

Anyway, I really recommend this fix to anyone who has ongoing starter problems - I can't be sure that it works (see above), but it is a zero cost procedure and is not difficult to do.

 

 

Thanks again for the clear instructions Mark

 

 

Charlie

 

Charlie'n'Kermit

The plan is: There is no plan

S5EVN

[Nifty]

Mark,

 

Very useful notes.

They must get on the 7Faqs page ❗ *thumbup*

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[Chris W]

Charlie

 

When you added the additional relay, how did you wire it in? There are 2 basic ways of doing it.... both provide the same functionality but the original posting still utilised the MFU relay to switch the new relay.

 

My suggestion (see search) was to bypass the MFU starter relay entirely, therby removing a potential point of failure. Now, I don't know what caused your relay to click, but just maybe, if the original MFU relay is still in circuit, then the original corrosion is still causing a problem.

 

There again, it may be that your starter motor was so tight that the current needed to turn it dropped the battery voltage sufficiently to prevent the possibility of starting.

 

Just something to check

 

Chris

 

2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here

[charlie_pank]

Thanks Chris, actually I took it right out of the circuit - nasty puny little thing!!

 

Charlie'n'Kermit

The plan is: There is no plan

S5EVN

[Andy Clayson]

Thank you Mark for your instructions. This is the first "proper" repair I've ever completed on my 7 and there is an unusual air of smugness around the house tonight 😬

 

I guess I'm going to have to find something else to fix, now...

 

Andy