Steve Robinson Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 So having got back from Llandow I have established that my live axle X-flow is significantly slower in its current formthan my old Superlight. I was 1.6 seconds slower despite moving from CR500's to ACB10's so I guess in round terms I have lost about 2.5 seconds. Question is, as the car goes well in a straight line, what should I do with my suspension? I have the Spax adjustable dampers all round, but I do have a set of Freestyle dampers that I can put into the rear if this helps. Advice from one local supplier is to change the springs, then spend £350 with them to corner weight the car, and not fit the Freestyle dampers, but the view on here seems to be that the Freestyle dampers are excellent. So where should I begin in all this to get the car faster in time for Curborough Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Its not just going to be entirely suspension related is it?? How else does the car differ from the superlight, ie engine power,brakes, levels of comfort (screen, tillets etc), gearing (6spd and diff ratio). Loads of factors to be considered I would guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted April 27, 2004 Author Share Posted April 27, 2004 You're right Julian, I just suspect that the suspension is the weakest link so to speak. Both cars run aeroscreens, the Superlight was of course 6 speed and the X-flow is 4 speed, no idea on ratios though. I can't establish the power output of the X-xlow but would guess it to be in the 130-145 area so close to the Superlight overall. Other big differences are brakes, I have drums in the back of the X-flow and haven't uprated the fronts, and also no LSD for this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanB Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Steve, Don't forget that the crossflow is much heavier (I've heard 40kgs, apologies to cross crossflowers if wrong . ) than a K series. Hence weight balance, acceleration, braking and cornering all affected. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I recently converted from Spax to fully adj alloy shocks and Freestyle springs on my Live Axle and the difference is amazing (although I've only used it on the road so far). I'm also upgrading to 'proper' upper front wishbones and DD front ARB. 40 kg extra for a X-Flow over a K sounds like an over-estimate. And don't forget that the Live Axle saves a considerable amount of weight over the DD at the back. I understand that it's technically better to lose weight nearer the front, although can't this be compensated to some extent by corner-weighting adjustment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Excuse me coming along a little late into this but isn't £350 just a little steeeeeep for a flat flooring exercise 🤔 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nats Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Talk to Andy at Team Parker Racing (www.teamparkerracing.com) about doing the flat floor. Can't think what it cost but it was not as much as you have been quoted and they do a good job. Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I've recently attempted to give my SV a better handling set-up. During the build I wound the adjustable spring platforms to their highest setting to avoid whacking the sump. With my weight in bricks in the driver seat, I've recently lowered the front until the lower wishbones are parallel to the ground (57mm sump clearance - Gulp!)- both sides the same extension. I then flat floored it without a flat floor, courtesy of Peter C's description - FREE. I increased the negative camber to correct the front tyres wearing on their outer edges, and set the toe-in to zero. The handling: in a straight line, turn-in and through the corners/bends is MUCH improved - the car feels more settled and the improved handling has given me greatly increased confidence 😬 BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Steve, If your Freestyle Dampers are the rose jointed ones then I definitely think you should stay with the Spax dampers. I would of course be happy to make you an offer for the freestyles dampers for my car 😬 Just ignore Ferrinos posting as he is talking about road use which is a million miles from sprinting and my time of 84.04 in class 5 at Llandow demonstrates I need them more than you! Regards Tony Pickering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted April 27, 2004 Author Share Posted April 27, 2004 The Freestyle dampers aren't rose jointed, so should I fit them or sell them... Steve N - I felt that £350 seemed a lot, but then I do believe you get what you pay for. He reckoned on 7 hours worth of tinkering to get it absolutely spot on, does that sound right??? So where are we at:1) Spax or Freestyle fotted to the rear? 2) Fit new springs? 3) cheap flat floor or £350 for 7 hours work? 4) any other ideas that I as a mechanical numpty could achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I'd definitely fit the Freestyle rears whether they are rose-jointed or not! Many people have sung the praises of rose-jointed rears on a live axle and I understand that there is a theoretical advantage, but has anyone ever actually compared rose joints VS. non rose-joints on the same/similar car and with the same dampers? Does it really take 7 hours to properly set up the corner-weights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrelevant Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 £350 with them to corner weight the car 7 hours at £50 per hour then....... They are just having a laugh at your potential expense. FWIW, my car took under 2 hours to do and is near-as-dam-it, spot on. It cost £10 BTW (Woolly's NTL corner weighting session). J351 TPE - In one piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 TonyC, I too have a SV and have tried to set up the suspension. Its a Duratec so no idea what the height below the sump should be. A few questions (sorry for the hijack Steve) 1:What height was your front chassis rail at the engine mounts, from the floor 2: Which part of the front suspension is parallel to the floor, all my front wishbones have different angles 3: How much damper rod is left before you are on the bump stops, mine has so little, I think I might need different dampers. Cheers, Neil Duratec Se7en, built in Dubai, pics here! Keep it sunny side up and out of the kitty litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Whizz Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I too have just fitted Freestyle's kit to my live axle (Adjustable Avos, adjustable ride height etc and different top mounts (not rubber) and the result was incredible - I was at Combe at the weekend and was, frankly amazed by how good it was, aswell as being massively better on the road. I too had spax adjustables before. Old very noisy BRG 1760 x flow, cycle wings and minilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Dobuy, I don't know what the sump clearance 'should' be. I think CC recommend 75mm min. I was a bit dubious that 57mm would be enough, but there have been no loud ringing noises yet 😬 and I give both cat's eyes and speed bumps a wide berth. 1. I just made sure the rear was 15mm higher than the front, but didn't measure because my garage floor is not too flat. 2. I used the rear lower wishbone with a small spirit level - the one at right angles to the body. 3. I'm about half way down the thread on both front dampers; at the top on the drivers rear and slighly more than half way down on the rear pax. (I weigh 100 kg) Peter C's "Flat floor without a flat floor" is real easy to do and is, I think, accurate enough - certainly made a noticeable difference to my handling 😬 BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Anybody local to me wants a CW'ing for £10 to NTL let me know... Takes less than 2 hours assuming your damper rings are not seized. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I'm glad to read that someone is using my bodge setup method! I'm still using it, because I'm a cheapskate and I don't trust a "gauge" unless I have seen it calibrated and seen it proven to be repeatable (in the hands of the operator who is wielding it...).... which never happens. For those of you who missed it, the complete open source version of the "flat floor without the flat floor" method is... What I have done is devised a method which gives assurance that the car is close to optimal flat floor settings. The main aim is to fix it so that the front wheels have an even corner weighting and the rear springing is coping with the off-axis weight of the driver. Here is how it is done: When the front wheels have an even corner weighting, there is no torsional reaction from the front suspension on the chassis. This can be mimicked by jacking up the front of the car and supporting it on a narrow support (inch wide chock of soft wood) underneath the front chassis 'cross'. In this condition it is easy to support the rear of the car on the de dion tube and see if the disconnected link from one side of the anti-roll bar lines up with its mounting hole when the car is loaded as desired. This ensures that the rear takes all the off axis loading and that the car runs straight and level (at the back at least). The next bit requires that your chassis is straight, which may or may not be the case. The intention is now to get the front suspension to be set up so that it doesn't transfer any torsion into the chassis when it is running level. The way I do this is to adjust ride heights until the ride is level having contrived a situation where I *know* that the front is not reacting any roll moment. While the front is still supported on its narrow support, *slowly* jack up the rear on another narrow support underneath the lateral ribbing on the bottom of the differential. Raise the car until you see the first signs of daylight beneath either of the rear tyres. The car is now perilously supported on two *knife edge* (wood block) pivot points and can rotate in the roll axis with only very slight loadings. The car will probably be off balance so that it rocks onto just one of the rear tyres. Jack down the rear, move the pivot point slightly and jack up again until you have exactly found the balance point (alternatively move some ballast from side to side in the boot until you get a balance). The off centre jacking location compensates for the weight distribution of the unladen car (heavier on the exhaust side) and guarantees that the front suspension doesn't have any torsion to react - once you have found this point, leave the rear rocking on its balance point and jack down the front. Raise the rear a small amount so that you can see that both tyres are clear of the ground and adjust the front spring platforms until the front ride heights are even left to right. You now have a good approximation of a bad flat floor setup. The front corner weights will be matched and the rears will be mismatched. A more ideal setup will involve evening up the loadings on the diagonals, but at least the car will be running straight and level. You could do all of the above maintaining half of the off-axis loading in the car (e.g. 35-40 kg in the driver's seat) >How you set the front to rear ride height? The front should be set so that you have enough energy absorption ability in the suspension for 99% of the situations you expect to encounter. This does depend on tyres. I have done no analysis on the bump steer at the front in relation to ride height so I just go for something high enough that my sump stays safe most of the time. I think you should aim to have at least two inches clear space underneath the front of the sump. The rear is something of a mystery to me with the Watts linkage. A good starting point would be to follow the book's advice and have 35mm more clearance under the rear. I think with the current spec dampers you can go significantly lower than this without experiencing problems with ground clearance and the Watts linkage should prevent you from developing too much understeer. If you do get understeer, raise the rear and see what sort of effect it has. Once you have done the flat floor thing, you can adjust both of the rear spring platforms in step without altering the flat floor settings. The same goes for the front. (The big assumption in this lot is that you don't have a corkscrew deformed chassis). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Thanks Tony, Will give it a go, cheers, Neil Duratec Se7en, built in Dubai, pics here! Keep it sunny side up and out of the kitty litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted April 28, 2004 Author Share Posted April 28, 2004 Steve, Could be very interested, but I don't think I'm exactly local to you. Where are you and what exactly would be involved.... Thanks in advance Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I must confess to using Peter C's superb flat-floor 'bodge' too I've used it a couple of times, along with the 'toe using strings' method to setup my suspension and have been v pleased with the results. What's more it's easily repeatable. ...and I'm going to get the chance to try it all over again in a few days, when my Freestyle pushrod system arrives 😬 Darren E K80RUM Edited by - k80rum on 28 Apr 2004 09:09:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I'm near Woking. A villiage called Bisley. Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted April 28, 2004 Author Share Posted April 28, 2004 Steve, So if I fit my Freestyle dampers and then trailer it down what could you do for me? Will happily pay way more than £10 to NTL if you can help me set it up properly (given that currently £350 has been quoted!). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Yeah course... Are you fitting the dampers yourself? Can't it be driven with some boggo ride height settings? £20 to NTL for full ride height and CW then Hants (North) and Berkshire Area club site here My racing info site here Edited by - stevefoster on 28 Apr 2004 18:43:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Steve F., Hope you're keeping this offer going during the summer. I've not got to SVA yet but will want it CW'd and geometry setup when it's on the road. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Robinson Posted April 28, 2004 Author Share Posted April 28, 2004 Steve you are a star. I'll email you offline to sort out a date to come down to you. It is driveable, I have just got out of the habit of driving it on the road since I started sprinting 😳 Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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