BruceW Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Loads of threads in the archive on coolant and K series but nobody actually answers why ethylene glycol is bad and propylene glycol is good. I am totally confused. I bought Halfords 'advanced coolant', told Caterham what it was (even sent the bottle down with the car for its PBC) and they never said anything, now I read this is no good as it is ethylene glycol based. Do I need to change to a propylene glycol product ASAP or is it not actually actively harmful to leave the current product. Comma coldstream is emphatically not available at the places i have tried locally. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Grundy Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Bruce Cant tell you exactly why, but Ethylyne Glycol is NOT suitable for the K series engine. A recent thread a few days ago will inform you where you can get Comma coldstreem, but failing that Caterham does next day delivery. Im sure there will be responses here telling you to drain the system and replace with the proper stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 IIRC.... It's not suitable because where you get localised boiling at low-flow interfaces between the head and the block, the ethylene glycol promotes oxidation of the alloy, leading to pitting in the head, leading to your requiring a head-skim or, if the pitting is severe, a new head. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Propylene glycol is said to be environmentally safe, provide better cooling, provide better corrosion resistance, has a higher boiling point than Ethylene Glycol. It also lasts longer and doesn’t break down in the same way. Ethylene Glycol is also toxic and rumoured to be carcenogenic. Ethylene glycol has always caused a corrosion problem for all types of engine but particularly for aluminium engines. When it breaks down it produces oxalic acid, which causes significant corrosion. The inhibitors in the anti-freeze are supposed to prevent this from happening but again they have a limited life. You only have to look at the sludge in engine cooling systems that have used Ethylene glycol based coolants to see the effects of corrosion. It has also been said that if Ethylene Glycol contaminates oil due to head gasket leakage then bearings can be damaged in a very short timescale. Propylene Glycol is supposed to be much better. It is not too bad if the system is flushed and the coolant changed regularly as the inhibitors used are quite good for the first 12 months but the price of PG based solutions is very similar to EG so why not use PG. PG coolants are much safer and will last longer and seem to be a much better solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Thanks for such clear replies. Why the (expletive deleted) did Caterham Midlands not tell me this. I'll get it changed over. Flushing needed between products?? If so just water? Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The stuff you need is from Rover and is called their 4-year coolant. Do not be sold their 2-year coolant when they claim there is no such thing as a 4-year coolant. What they mean is, they have no 4-year stuff in handy 1 litre containers. I had to buy a 25 litre container of the 4-year stuff, but I'm happy with that because I take the engine apart so frequently I need to refill once a year. You can get handier containers of it, just not everywhere. The 4-year stuff DOES NOT REQUIRE MIXING WITH WATER. Just pour it in neat. Because it doesn't mix with water, I don't believe you ought to flush the system with water. You will get over 90% of the current coolant out by pulling the bottom rad hose off, so just refill with the 4-year stuff and you'll be fine. If you want to get really silly, then change it after 1 year. It'll be good for the full 4 years after that, if not after the first fill (which I believe will be sufficient). I don't have a part code to hand. Email me direct if you need it and I'll check when I get home. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Rothwell Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I was looking for some Coldstream the other day and came across some new bottles of a Comma Coolant which had recommended for all Caterham marques on the label. This was not Comma Extreme as I'd already looked at that and put it back as it's ethylene glycol based. I'm sure the other was Propylene Glycol based. Sorry but I did not catch the actual brand name as behind these bottles I found two bottles of Coldstream so I picked these up instead. A bit wooly but perhaps someone else has seen this other product - next time I'm passing the outlet I'll call in and check the name. Who needs a Helmet - Get an Affro ! Clickhere to see Car and AFFRO ! Member 6790 Superlight 0075 - K7 LYT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I have noisily championed PG coolants - ever since my Superlight's engine expired with head gasket failure after 26,000 miles of mistreatment. The answer that Chris has supplied is comprehensive. The PG stuff takes a worry away. EG can be OK but everything comes down to the additives package making up for shortcomings in the basic formulation. All of this is detail stuff that Caterham Midlands might not have need to know, considering that when they fill a car with coolant it doesn't suffer any problems for a number of years and many miles. Nig, The Rover 4 year coolant is premixed with water. It is water miscible. You are talking nonsense again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Caterham's recommendations will see the cars happily running through Caterham's warranty period. I wouldn't use them when there is something evidently better readily available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Is it right that as a general guide they are colour coded ? ie EG being blue/green and PG being Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Comma's Coldstream (PG) is a Blue/Green colour, but you could try drinking a pint and seeing how you felt. Seriously, PG is described on some of the packaging "essentially non-toxic" which actually means: "not as toxic as the other stuff we normally sell you". There are some fairly active pressure groups who want to see it banned from use in cosmetics and as a food additive ingredient. It is readily absorbed by the skin (makes it a useful moisturiser) but this has been shown to be linked to liver and kidney damage. Tastes quite good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The Rover 4 year coolant is premixed with water.Hence my assertion:The 4-year stuff DOES NOT REQUIRE MIXING WITH WATER.Come on. You're always telling people to properly read your postings... return the courtesy. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 😬 Because it doesn't mix with water I read that bit too. What do you want me to do with that bit. 🙆🏻 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 In all practical aspects, people would have read that the way I intended, which was "Because it isn't intended to be diluted". I was attempting to contrast the 2-year stuff which does need diluting with the 4-year stuff, which doesn't. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 I called Caterham parts. 'We fit Coldstream Xstream to all our cars now, its what we recommend' Looking at the Comma website this contains 'Glysantin' which I suspect is a tradename for PG. It is available in red or green but the difference seems only to be the life, red=5yrs, green=3years. Time to update the owners handbook then! Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 To give you some idea of how toxic EG is. I spilt a cupfull of EG/water mix on my lawn early last year. The grass died and nothing has grown there since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 BruceW, The comma site specifies that "coldstream" contains "mono propylene glycol". BASF glysantin is going to be an EG based package with anti-corrosion additives. By searching around I discovered that Glysantin is a Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) coolant. What’s a HOAT? Hybrid OAT in this case means it has a traditional Ethylene Glycol-base, with a single OAT inhibitor and is moderately silicated. The version now being installed by DC, and tested by Ford, is based on the German BASF product, Glysantin G 05. It has been used in extensively in European Mercedes Benz and other manufacturer’s vehicles since the late 1980’s. New users expect that it will provide the 5-year, 100K miles coverage they desire. G 05 proponents believe that its moderate dose of silicates provide greater aluminum protection than a straight OAT while still being water pump friendly. Click here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Anyone like me old enough to remember the Austrian Wine scam, when they added Ethylene glycol to boost the sugar content and hence price of their dessert wines. Then there is the Soya Bean Coolant to be found at: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/soy_20coolant But I would be verrrry careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Many people think that all cooling system antifreeze products are the same, except some are methanol based and some are glycol based. Not so! In newer automotive applications, silicates are needed to protect aluminum engine parts and radiators from corrosion, and are used in virtually all antifreeze mixtures in varying forms and amounts. Eventually, silicates are supposed to drop out of the coolant mix, and as long as they do so at a controlled rate, they work quite well. However, over time, the "soup" of chemicals, impurities, and corrosion by-products in a cooling system can start to behave in ways difficult to analyze or predict. When silicates begin to drop out too rapidly, they build up and form a gel. A number of things can start this process: high silicate levels from incorrect antifreeze concentrations or improper use of coolant additives, impurities in very hard water, and severe engine temperature swings. The main effects of the formation of this silicate gel are clogging of radiator and heater cores, and engine overheating. Silicate gel buildup greatly reduces heat transfer from the engine castings to the coolant. When the gel coats the temperature sender, engine overheating can take place without notice. Silicate gel also carriers abrasive particles to the water pump, where it wears away pump seals causing leakage and failure. Unfortunately, there are few effective methods for cleaning the gel from an already-clogged system. Radiators must be removed and sent out for a thorough cleaning. The engine must be flushed with a caustic solution. The gel is not water soluble, so flushing with water alone will not work. One additional point, the orange antifreezes such as "Dexcool" [used by GM] are specifically formulated for aluminum components. Silicates protect aluminium engines from the worst effects of EG. Problems with silicates can lead to water pump failure and sludging. Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 12 Feb 2003 17:47:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Can the orange antifreeze be used in every cooling system? No, that is the bad news, the new organic acid antifreezes may be used only if the cooling system has an aluminum radiator, rather than copper-and-brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 The handbook of my new factory-built SV specifies Comma Coldstream but I visited the factory to see the car near completion a few weeks ago and the guy was just filling it with Antifreeze. One of the the photos I took shows the container to be Comma X-Stream Red. States "pre-mixed" and "4-year life" on the front. 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 All antifreeze is not compatible. There are cases where you can get a fast case of corrosion. Cases where the water pump can be both eroded and corroded to failure. Plus many cases where you can shorten the effective life of the antifreeze by mixing types to drain out all the old antifreeze from any system, thoroughly rinse the system with fresh water. The idea in any case is to rinse your cooling system well, until the liquid is clear water. However it probably takes about three complete drain/refill cycles--draining the system and filling with water, then letting the engine warm up and cool down between each cycle--to get 85 to 90 percent of the old coolant out. I have heard through various sources that Low Tox [PG] coolant is not nearly as good at heat absorption and transfer as Ethylene Glycol. Which is best? A Propylene Glycol or a Ethylene Glycol based ? I will say that if you flush your system on a motorcycle every year or 15,000 miles there is no difference in performance of the products . I have yet to see an engineering report that supports the fact that a Propylene Glycol based antifreeze will transfer heat better than a Ethylene Glycol based antifreeze . I mean an independent engineering firm, Govt., or university test . Not statements made by distributors or manufacturers. The biggest reason behind Propylene Glycol based antifreeze is an EPA issue which translates to the cost of recycling & disposal . This comes into focus when considering the military & the trucking or fleet industry logging millions of miles each year . With Propylene Glycol based antifreeze & I emphasize with proper testing procedures & additive level maintenance , you can run it indefinitely reducing the cost of disposal & handling . The only performance gain that I know of is if Propylene Glycol gets into the oil system it will not destroy the crank bearings like Ethylene Glycol will . From a toxicology stand point Propylene Glycol is a lot safer than Ethylene glycol . They are both toxic to humans & animals . It just takes a lot more Propylene Glycol to raise the blood's acid level to become toxic to us . In a nut shell if you are using a Propylene Glycol based antifreeze thinking that it is a superior product to a Ethylene Glycoe Propylene Glycol based antifreeze perform to it's potential you are leading yourself down a path a false security . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Quote from the http://www.commaoil.com/xstreamrange.htm web page. Note it mentions specifically ali engines and that the ready-mixed version is made with "treated water" to reduce scale. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xstream Red - Concentrate High performance vehicle manufacturer approved antifreeze and coolant. Contains GLYSANTIN® from BASF®. Long life - 5 year corrosion protection for cars, vans, trucks & buses - petrol & diesel. Silicate free formula-Organic Acid Technology (OAT) for engines requiring a Red Antifreeze/Coolant. Helps prevent winter freeze & summer boil over. Designed to protect aluminium engines. Meets the exacting quality standard - BS-6580-1992. SIZE CASE QTY. CODE A MANUFACTURERS APPROVED PRODUCT:- AUDI/SEAT/SKODA/VW (TL774D) FORD (WSS-M97B44-D) May also be used universally - providing the system is flushed out before refilling. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xstream Red - Ready Mixed A ready mixed alternative of Xstream Red Concentrate. Simple to use & top up. Blended with treated water to reduce build up of scale in the cooling system. Blended from Xstream Red concentrate that meets the exacting quality standard BS-6580-1992 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence_Z Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 It would be interesting to know if the people that have sufferred HGF had Ally rads and whether they had heaters (copper) in their sevens. I know one chap who has just had his head skimmed due to pitting, following HGF and has now discovered a porous Ally rad. He has a heater. Any feedback appreciated Lawrence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 This site has AMSOIL provided product data for a Propylene Glycol coolant It provides the clearest statement of benefits: >Improves liner pitting protection >Low toxicity >Improves solder and cast iron corrosion protection >Less aluminum hot surface corrosion The K-series head gasket problem is a hot surface aluminium corrosion problem. For me this is why I run Coldstream (or would run an equivalent PG based coolant). Disadvantages relate to viscosity which is higher at cold temps, meaning that it isn't that good for use at below -10 deg C. It might be interesting to trial Evans NPG, which is a PG and inhibitor mix that doesn't use water. This can apparently be run at atmospheric pressure. Heat capacity is significantly less than an aqueous/glycol solution, so you can find situations where you need a bigger radiator/higher capacity pump. It has much higher boilover (over 200 degC), so you don't need to pressurise to prevent boiling. It has very low vapour pressure, so it will maintain a liquid to metal contact even at hotspots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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